Early life crisis

[C.A.R.]

Thing is though the MX5 is very sensitive to suspension changes, which is why people spend £150 on getting the geometry properly sorted. Even lowering it slightly will put everything out and mess up the handling. There's an even bigger misunderstanding between making a car look good and systematically ruining the handling all in one move...

The examples posted above? I can tell from here in front of my PC that they will handle like a dog on laminate flooring and grind and crunch everywhere. Epic waste of money.

[Jonny b]

Never owned one but driven loads and yes they are awsome in standard guise, also done some drifting and the turbo mx5 they had was fooking epic, slammed on its arse loads of camber though it was awsome to drift not to sure how good it would be on the road as it was hella skittish, fookin fun mind, horses for courses really

[cwspellowe]

Thing is though the MX5 is very sensitive to suspension changes, which is why people spend £150 on getting the geometry properly sorted. Even lowering it slightly will put everything out and mess up the handling. There's an even bigger misunderstanding between making a car look good and systematically ruining the handling all in one move...

The examples posted above? I can tell from here in front of my PC that they will handle like a dog on laminate flooring and grind and crunch everywhere. Epic waste of money.

Right, but a 306 is also sensitive to suspension changes. Does that mean they all handle like crap too?

What's the difference between spending £150 on setting up the standard geometry and spending £150 on setting up geometry with more adjustability?

I 100% guarantee that the MX5 was designed with some comfort in mind at the expense of even better handling. There is no reason why this compromise can't be exploited. Not everyone fits eBay coilovers and winds them all the way down

[C.A.R.]

But the lower it is, the less suspension travel it has, the worse it will handle. Ultimately, lower and wider = less adjustability and less predictable handling.

I think the measurement was 85mm, from floor to cill, for the ultimate handling setup on an MX5. This is the point where the wishbones are 100% level with the road surface. It's about 30mm lower than stock, with camber adjusted to suit (ie. not maxed out to f*ck)

A 306 isn't anywhere near as sensitive, since the rear torsion beam is what is adjusted to lower the ride height, plus at the front end it's standard practice to just fit suitable springs onto standard shocks, or get separate coilovers.

My car was lowered, I fitted the coilovers then had it adjusted by a local company who matched it to their race cars, then reduced the camber and toe slightly and the damper settings were wound back so it didn't break my back. Nobody spends that long f*cking about with the suspension on a 306 because no, it's not anywhere near as sensitive.

At the end of the day if you want to do what 75% of the members on MX5 forums do an lower a car, fit wider wheels with stretched tyres etc. then go for it, the little Mazda isn't exactly rare nor expensive. Just saying that, by doing so, you're not making the car any 'better' in fact the sole reason people buy them (the handling) will almost certainly be worse, so you may as well have just bought any other convertible and been different, whilst saving money on insurance...

[cwspellowe]

What other convertible can be had for less than a grand that's tiny, underpowered and on classic insurance? £30 a month is practically nothing.

I'm not trying to say i'm going to make the car better, the point i'm trying to make is that your blinkered view that lowering a car makes it handle like crap is a load of nonsense. You even contradicted yourself by saying that the ideal ride height is about 30mm lower than standard, yet you tried to argue earlier that they handle great as standard and lowering it would destroy that balance?

And yes people DO spend that long f*cking about with 306 suspension. Why do you think people fit hybrid ARB's, adjustable droplinks, camber/castor adjustable front struts, bigger TB's, machined trailing arms, adjustable dampers, solid beam mounts... need I go on? Obviously people are wasting their time fitting all of that stuff, right?

[Matt]

Do it
/thread

[C.A.R.]

What other convertible can be had for less than a grand that's tiny, underpowered and on classic insurance? £30 a month is practically nothing.

I'm not trying to say i'm going to make the car better, the point i'm trying to make is that your blinkered view that lowering a car makes it handle like crap is a load of nonsense. You even contradicted yourself by saying that the ideal ride height is about 30mm lower than standard, yet you tried to argue earlier that they handle great as standard and lowering it would destroy that balance?

Not a contradiction, instead selective reading on your part. Yes, just lowering the car will destroy the balance of the chassis. It needs a full geometry setup after any lowering work has been done.

And yes people DO spend that long f*cking about with 306 suspension. Why do you think people fit hybrid ARB's, adjustable droplinks, camber/castor adjustable front struts, bigger TB's, machined trailing arms, adjustable dampers, solid beam mounts... need I go on? Obviously people are wasting their time fitting all of that stuff, right?

Hands up who has had their geometry set up on their 306 after lowering it?

....

..

....

Nothing.

MX5 has adjustable camber, castor and toe as standard. Yes you can spend money and have all that done on your 306, but why bother...?

Because all of those things are adjustable from the factory, putting them all out of sync can make the car unpredictable and 'skittish', which nobody wants.

Also classic insurance is fine as long as you only intend to do limited mileage or use it at the weekend.

[cwspellowe]

But the lower it is, the less suspension travel it has, the worse it will handle. Ultimately, lower and wider = less adjustability and less predictable handling.

I think the measurement was 85mm, from floor to cill, for the ultimate handling setup on an MX5. This is the point where the wishbones are 100% level with the road surface. It's about 30mm lower than stock, with camber adjusted to suit (ie. not maxed out to f*ck)

VS

Thing is though the MX5 is very sensitive to suspension changes, which is why people spend £150 on getting the geometry properly sorted. Even lowering it slightly will put everything out and mess up the handling. There's an even bigger misunderstanding between making a car look good and systematically ruining the handling all in one move...

Not selective reading at all. I'm not arguing the facts, more that you don't seem to have a set point to argue. In one post you say even lowering slightly will mess up the handling, in another you concede that approximately 30mm lower than standard is ideal.

If that makes the car handle better, then why would Mazda not have done that themselves? Compromise. As I already stated, compromises by the manufacturer are there to be exploited.

People who really appreciate the way the 306 handles DO get their geometry aligned. Doesn't take a genius to see more and more suspension threads are cropping up where people are serious about the handling characteristics of the car, and more and more parts are becoming available to aid the development of the 306's handling such as ball joint spacers to keep the wishbones parallel, they only became readily available within the last 6 months or so, and machined arms and hubs within the last 24 months.

Anyone who throws a cheap set of springs on their 306 and doesn't get the geometry reset can be tarred with the same brush as those that fit lowering springs to an MX5 and do the same. Doesn't matter how well a car drives when new, it CAN be improved on without exception.

Also with regards to your comments on the MX5 being fun at the limit of grip, and that it's a defining characteristic, why would people choose to fit solid rear beam mounts to a 306? LOOS is a defining characteristic of a 306, surely eliminating that is also blasphemy? Hmm, there must be SOME reason why people do it?

[C.A.R.]

People are always looking for ways to improve because they think that owning a Halfords socket set suddenly makes them a chassis engineering expert.

I still haven't contradicted myself. Lowering the car slightly will mess up the handling unless the geometry is re-done.

Getting the geometry done on a 306 is virtually impossible. You can get the tracking looked at, to check for toe-in / out, but nothing else is adjustable unless you spend mega money on new top mounts and struts, even then the rear cannot be adjusted at all...

My point is that you can't just chuck some aftermarket wheels and suspension on an MX5 and expect it all to work together seemlessly, whilst checking yourself out in the plate glass windows of your local town center. You may get lucky, but without proper equipment and a geo check you could never be sure how good your setup is.

Whilst there are products out there then there will always be a flock of people prepared to spend mega money on the parts to add to their car with the ignorant self belief that they're definitely making an improvement to their car.

For example, your estate looks fantastic. However it has those expensive D2 coilovers does it not? I'd question the point of those. The car has virtually no suspension travel and an inability to navigate a pothole or speedbump, whilst you openly admit in another thread that you try not to corner too fast because the cheap stud conversion kit you bought could cause a wheel to fall off if it is put under too much stress. But something made you buy those parts, for whatever reason, and it has bought you joy as a result.

[Jonny b]

Ha ha car is definately back lol

[C.A.R.]

Ha ha car is definately back lol

No idea what you're talking about Jonny...

[cwspellowe]

Ha ha car is definately back lol

I like him in these moods

People are always looking for ways to improve because they think that owning a Halfords socket set suddenly makes them a chassis engineering expert.

I still haven't contradicted myself. Lowering the car slightly will mess up the handling unless the geometry is re-done.

Getting the geometry done on a 306 is virtually impossible. You can get the tracking looked at, to check for toe-in / out, but nothing else is adjustable unless you spend mega money on new top mounts and struts, even then the rear cannot be adjusted at all...

My point is that you can't just chuck some aftermarket wheels and suspension on an MX5 and expect it all to work together seemlessly, whilst checking yourself out in the plate glass windows of your local town center. You may get lucky, but without proper equipment and a geo check you could never be sure how good your setup is.

Whilst there are products out there then there will always be a flock of people prepared to spend mega money on the parts to add to their car with the ignorant self belief that they're definitely making an improvement to their car.

For example, your estate looks fantastic. However it has those expensive D2 coilovers does it not? I'd question the point of those. The car has virtually no suspension travel and an inability to navigate a pothole or speedbump, whilst you openly admit in another thread that you try not to corner too fast because the cheap stud conversion kit you bought could cause a wheel to fall off if it is put under too much stress. But something made you buy those parts, for whatever reason, and it has bought you joy as a result.

Ahh but you didn't say to have the geometry realigned, hence the misunderstanding.

The D2's? I got them for £100 and they're cheap Taiwanese suspension. The only reason I sold the TA's and got the D2's was because they were camber adjustable. Yes they're £600-odd a set new but that doesn't make them good. If I wasn't getting them so cheap I wouldn't have bothered as I know for a fact they will be ruined, if they aren't already that is.

I'm not afraid to throw it into a corner to be honest, the cheap studs work fine but track day abuse is something completely different to road driving which is why I recommended he got the more expensive high tensile stud conversion if he's using it on track. Much the same as I wouldn't run my suspension setup if the estate was a track car, the D2's are nice and firm and I like the way they work with no ARB, in fact they're surprisingly well damped too, but to get any decent ride height out of them i've had to drop the spring pan and there's about 3" of droop. Piston smash a-plenty but given the fact the estate doesn't get driven in a way where it will bump steer off the road it's not an issue to me.

I do however disagree with your last statement, using the estate as an example of the "ignorant self belief that they're definitely making an improvement to the car". Quite the opposite. I've designed and implemented suspension parts on the gti6, i've spent hours researching the mechanics behind the way suspension parts interact and have a good understanding of what does what and why it does it. I've enough knowledge to know that no, there is not much driving comfort at all, but i know how to set up toe, camber, caster, pitch, bump steer and all the rest exactly how I want it. As a result the estate drives how I want it to. It doesn't feel like a barge, it sticks to the corners at the speeds I feel comfortable doing and gives a lot of feedback via the steering wheel. It's also surprisingly forgiving on all but the shittest of roads, hit a pothole and something dies but the answer to that is avoid potholes...

There's more to suspension than theory. Dialling in is the fun part, once you have the bits where you want them you DRIVE the car and adjust the setup to YOUR driving style. Personally I don't like body roll as a measure of grip, others do. But trial and error is not an ignorant self belief, it's a tried and trusted way of making the most of the adjustability available to you.

Oh and...












..I also own a Halfords tool kit.

[C.A.R.]

Haha, just fun prodding of buttons here, no offence intended.

Good to have a debate without one person resorting to calling the other a c*nt, which is the usual response...

Fair play on the Estate, like I said I actually do like what you've done, but for some reason thought you had bought the suspension for substantially more than £100. For that price, I can understand why you used it.

Just apply the same logic when / if you get a Roadster, otherwise it will keep me awake at night.

[cwspellowe]

Good, you're a lady garden

[Bananalad]

If you buy one and dont deck it on stupidly wide wheels with stretch then its just a hairdressers car.. Imo of course

[Dum-Dum]

Ha ha car is definately back lol

Was just thinking that

What a male hen

[Ed Doe]

I adjusted my camber and caster after lowering it on coilovers.... with my compbrake eccentric top mounts... Discuss













on a serious note I've not really done it the technical way, but god an I happy with the results of what I've done... And it was bloody good fun getting it to this point too by playing with settings and finding out how I liked the car to handle...

[Jonny b]

Be even better if you didn't have a wobbly wheel eh Ed



taptaptaptaptap








Trolloll

[Niall]

I adjusted my camber and caster after lowering it on coilovers.... with my compbrake eccentric top mounts... Discuss













on a serious note I've not really done it the technical way, but god an I happy with the results of what I've done... And it was bloody good fun getting it to this point too by playing with settings and finding out how I liked the car to handle...

Shit here he goes again....

[Ed Doe]

Be even better if you didn't have a wobbly wheel eh Ed



taptaptaptaptap








Trolloll

Fuuuuuuuuuu! how have i become the staple diet of every fecking troll on this forum?!?!

[Jonny b]

Said it before and I'll say it again!! It's in the rules!! Troll Ed and abuse fooby

[Niall]

Said it before and I'll say it again!! It's in the rules!! Troll Ed and abuse fooby

And indecently touch Scott


What? Too soon?

[Jonny b]

I'll leave that to you bud don't want to catch the ginger bug ha ha