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+--- Thread: Stage 1 map? (/showthread.php?tid=4951)
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Stage 1 map? - kyleo92 - 17-07-2012
Just a quick question,
im about to do a stage 1 remap but before wanted to know how it would affect the fuel economy. Obviously it depends how you drive it but has anyone experienced a massive drop, reason is I use my pug for work and probably do around 6k miles a month... Any reply would be awesome :-D
RE: Stage 1 map? - Dan! - 17-07-2012
If you drive it normally it wont be any diifferent really, some people even claim an increase in MPG with careful driving.
RE: Stage 1 map? - Midnightclub - 17-07-2012
This^^ Driving normally will give you the same if not slightly better economy, if anything i found mine had increased..
Even when hooning i never really saw less than 45mpg average though
Stage 1 map? - kentiiboii - 17-07-2012
Yeah I'd say with mine it's very slightly increased. But when hooning it's still giving me around 45mpg
RE: Stage 1 map? - Toms306 - 17-07-2012
A diesel remap should increase fuel economy, not decrease it....unless you get addicted to the new found power anyway.
RE: Stage 1 map? - kingy - 17-07-2012
i need a derv
RE: Stage 1 map? - Kezzieboy - 17-07-2012
Yup, mine went up by 3-5mpg IIRC
RE: Stage 1 map? - kyleo92 - 17-07-2012
Cheers guys.... Sounds like a no brainer to me then..
Easy to do yourself? As In I won't mess up as long as I get a decent map not an ebay one
Stage 1 map? - kentiiboii - 17-07-2012
(17-07-2012, 05:32 PM)kingy Wrote: i need a derv
You do!
RE: Stage 1 map? - Poodle - 17-07-2012
Very easy to do, get yourself a clone galletto or KWP tool (about a tenner on the bay, last time i looked) and map it via your/a mates laptop. Be sure the laptop is in good condition, not prone to blue screens/error messages or poor battery life etc. Couple of good mappers on this forum, Mr Whippy is very popular, but since you're in Leicester i'd recommend pro_steve. He's in your area and would be able to do the actual writing of the map for you if you're nervous about it.
RE: Stage 1 map? - kyleo92 - 17-07-2012
(17-07-2012, 07:32 PM)Poodle Wrote: Very easy to do, get yourself a clone galletto or KWP tool (about a tenner on the bay, last time i looked) and map it via your/a mates laptop. Be sure the laptop is in good condition, not prone to blue screens/error messages or poor battery life etc. Couple of good mappers on this forum, Mr Whippy is very popular, but since you're in Leicester i'd recommend pro_steve. He's in your area and would be able to do the actual writing of the map for you if you're nervous about it.
Awesome sauce
Thanks
RE: Stage 1 map? - Mr Whippy - 17-07-2012
The injections at cruise speeds of around 60-70mph are already optimised for mpg. Peugeot/Bosch even fitted a 3rd piston de-activation system on the HP pump to reduce bhp cost there at low injection demands, so they were really looking around for mpg gains and investing some money in such things.
Generally, you *can* get extra power and retain good economy. I drove my HDi hard and had 44mpg standard, 43mpg after stage 1 remap, and 42mpg with 150bhp and FMIC and driving like a loon everywhere
Thing is, once you get on motorways and cruise at sensible speeds then it doesn't really matter what you have done, the basic fuellings are very optimised and so if the bulk of your driving is in those conditions then they won't change much
I'd think about looking into recon injectors if you are doing 6k miles a month just generally. I assume your bill is around £700 a month or £8,400 a year, so if you found even 5% in injectors you'd save more in a year than the recon injectors cost. Also the remap would probably work better with recon injectors too.
No doubt your car is high mileage any way, more so because you are doing 6k miles a year
Cheers
Dave
RE: Stage 1 map? - kyleo92 - 17-07-2012
(17-07-2012, 09:15 PM)Mr Whippy Wrote: No doubt your car is high mileage any way, more so because you are doing 6k miles a year
It's on around 130k.. My driving is quite varied, I spend two weeks of the month covering midlands, Norfolk, Suffolk and parts of yorkshire. And the last two weeks are spent in the joys of London..
(although I do find it funny, I leave a souvenir at every place I go to a.k.a the fluff from my worn drivers seat)
XD
RE: Stage 1 map? - HDIkyle - 18-07-2012
My economy crashed when I had mine mapped but that's because with the straight tho and extra power I turned into a 17 year old again and have to BOOOOST everywhere I go. But on a motorway run I'm sure it will be better than before. Its def more fun to drive tho which is most important in my eyes
RE: Stage 1 map? - kyleo92 - 18-07-2012
I just get fed up of Corsa B's with neons thinking they can have me at the lights.. The more smoke from the map the better I say haha!! (joke by the way)
RE: Stage 1 map? - Rebellious - 13-08-2012
(17-07-2012, 09:15 PM)Mr Whippy Wrote: The injections at cruise speeds of around 60-70mph are already optimised for mpg. Peugeot/Bosch even fitted a 3rd piston de-activation system on the HP pump to reduce bhp cost there at low injection demands, so they were really looking around for mpg gains and investing some money in such things.
Generally, you *can* get extra power and retain good economy. I drove my HDi hard and had 44mpg standard, 43mpg after stage 1 remap, and 42mpg with 150bhp and FMIC and driving like a loon everywhere
Thing is, once you get on motorways and cruise at sensible speeds then it doesn't really matter what you have done, the basic fuellings are very optimised and so if the bulk of your driving is in those conditions then they won't change much
I'd think about looking into recon injectors if you are doing 6k miles a month just generally. I assume your bill is around £700 a month or £8,400 a year, so if you found even 5% in injectors you'd save more in a year than the recon injectors cost. Also the remap would probably work better with recon injectors too.
No doubt your car is high mileage any way, more so because you are doing 6k miles a year
Cheers
Dave
dave, trying to get intouch with you about getting mine done!???
RE: Stage 1 map? - Ruan - 14-08-2012
I rekon there's much to be gained with HDis with regards to injection timing at cruise speed... I've noticed if I adjust it on my car it can be amazing on fuel or crap on fuel, purely down to the static timing of the engine - obviously that's an older XUD9, but DI diesels are even more sensitive to it....
Peugeot were constrained to emissions regulations whilst being able to keep ultimate longevity when the car is operating at -30*C out or +45*C and still work efficiently and reliably - I'd say for our country there's much to be improved upon - no reason a HDi shouldn't regularly hit 60mpg+ if an old XUD9 with it's ancient injection system can still hit 55mpg!
RE: Stage 1 map? - Mr Whippy - 16-08-2012
I'm in the process of doing some testing in this area but it's very tough.
For instance, on the HDi90 you can inject earlier to get better efficiency, but to finish injecting sooner you probably need to run more rail pressure, otherwise you might start injecting way too early and start to get issues with fuel atomisation becoming not optimal.
So you up rail pressure but now the rail pump runs a slight bit harder and that might cost you all the extra torque you found by changing the injection timing.
There really are so many variables to consider that it is hard to balance things. Even the worlds best engineers who do this work day in day out for OEM's will see odd results and tune things in weird ways to get certain results that go against logic.
So it is hard to go, X results in Y, so Z change will achieve my goal. They are general rules but since every engine has it's own idiosyncrasies due to all manner of mechanical properties it is as said just really hard to do.
I often say that although OEM's build to a compromise, the fact they have SO much skill/money to find that compromise that it's often a better solution than an 'un-compromised' solution provided by someone with much less skill and support and applying the correct knowledge but without fine consideration for the exact implementation of their product.
You do often see tuners say that they get more power because of fuel issues in some countries, or needing to operate ok in 50degC conditions, or miss a service etc etc... but in my view it's all just lies.
They push engines and they will ultimately cause MORE stress and strain in the longer run than the OEM.
A HDi has a temp sensor, so for instance it doesn't matter if you drive your remapped car to the north pole, the car will adjust it's fuelling appropriately to the conditions. Skip a service, then the coolant is worse, so heats up faster? Engine temp sensor sees it and trims to keep things safe.
Oil old, turbo lazy, MAF readings stay lower longer, trimming fuelling and controlling smoke.
Worst case EML comes on and we get 'safe' limp mode.
I think there are things we can improve on, but I think ANY tuner generally won't have the skill to get significantly better economy than OEM even though they have no limits on emissions, simply because they are less good with less good gear/knowledge/time etc.
If they ARE that good, they will work at BMW making F1 engine tunings, or calibrate OEM car engines, that is why the OEM's are hard to beat despite their compromises
In my XUD9, which was at the time pretty new and low mileage, I did a big long motorway commute at 70-80mph with some hooning at each end, but even then I only averaged 41mpg or so.
My HDi managed about 43-44mpg doing the same, so I do think the HDi is as or more economical than the XUD9.
It'd be an interesting test to do a brim fill on a 306 HDi/TDi and then go for a 100 mile cruise on the same day/patch of road/traffic, then pull off and re-brim and see what mpg they really are getting vs each other in cruise only conditions!
Hmmmm
Dave
RE: Stage 1 map? - Ruan - 17-08-2012
But is the management THAT intelligent to drop iqs vs temperature, correctly in relation to temperature and the remap given... Surely by the time you've remapped it, unless you took your calibration to the north pole or Saharan desert, and did testing, surely you can only be certain that in the UK climate it would be OK... I don't know whether you adjust the maps that control this, I'm not totally knowledgeable about it...
The single biggest efficiency increaser I've seen is the increase of boost pressure when cruising from the VNT... Considering I've never replaced my injectors which have now done over 200k on the original nozzles which usually send mpg through the floor... It took my car from mid forties in mpg to well over 50...
With regards to calibration without emission restrictions... I was chatting to a friend tonight, GM make a locomotive engine, used in the BR class 60, 3300hp or so, it's got one of the best fuel consumption figures of any loco, even today! That's all because it was produced at a time when emission regulations weren't strict... However they are supposedly horribly bad on emissions due to the fact they're high compression and high boost, lots of thermal efficiency, but loads of NOx... Also they run chronic timing...
From my admittedly limited experiences of DI diesels, injection pressure has a big effect, but past 500bar or so, it's the law of diminishing returns...? The more you run, the harder you have to run everything else, to a point the gains become fruitless due to everything being over worked... Old vp37 tdis seem consume very much similar amounts of fuel to their newer PD and Piezo CR sisters, even though they're a much older design..
Id be very much interested to see where that point is... The more efficient you can make the injection system the better, but at some point increasing pressure more will consume so much energy, the increases in atomization and therefore economy become outweighed...
Hmm...
RE: Stage 1 map? - Toms306 - 17-08-2012
^^^That, makes for very interesting reading!
I was also under the impression that mpg rises after a remap due to the mass produced maps having to meet emmisions regs (but only Euro3 on hdis iirc) and wide temp bands.
The mpg did noticeably rise on my PD after the remap, as did the optimal cruising speed, and I can only guess this is due the increased boost pressue (its now better to cruise at 60 than 50, and have an increase of about 5mpg on a tank average now).
RE: Stage 1 map? - Poodle - 17-08-2012
I would have thought the limiting values would be the same, as there's no reason I can see to remove them during a performance remap. So in theory, yes, it would still work in the desert/arctic, although you wouldn't still have all the power if one of these limiting values was triggered. Those "safety" maps are still present and active. Is it not the same as limp mode? Ie doesn't matter about the conditions, if x-value is reached then limp mode will be engaged.
I think we can make a lot more from these engines with big boost, which is why i'm so excited by what Darren's doing. Ok it's not the same as one of the HDi guys doing it, but the basic theory should still apply. As you say, the only reason manufacturers don't go for the massive cylinders pressures and high temp burns is for emissions reasons.
I don't agree about your summary on DI injection pressures though, if that was the case why would so many manufacturers be using common rail, the lowest of which uses up to 1200bar of fuel pressure...? I think the PD engines use 2200bar at peak, no? Again, the old TDi's didn't have to compete with the same level of emissions restrictions and the like. Same goes for injection timing, run more advance and you start seeing big increases Nox and carbon monoxide emissions.
I'd also be very interested to see if anyone has reached that point. I've got say, would be very surprised if it was below anything that manufacturers have put on the road up to this point, so i reckon we've got at least 2k bar to play with!
RE: Stage 1 map? - Ruan - 17-08-2012
I think you'd see the same improvements going from 200bar to 500bar in economy... But to see the gains in emissions it seems that you just need to keep pushing the injection pressure - the reason people re programming the EDC have to ramp up the rail pressure is to see increases in power, since the nozzles are standard - I personally rekon (and this is only my theory - I'm more than happy to be proven wrong on all of this - I'm probably being naive...) that you could bump the orifice size of the nozzles, recalibrate the ECU's injector calibrations and keep the stock rail pressure, but drop the durations RIGHT down and you'd see nigh on the same efficiency and economy, but there would be massive gains in torque, even though theoretically the atomization would be worse... The only reason PSA didn't do this is due to emissions - you just wouldn't see the same emissions out of the engine, and possibly more noise...
The power and economy seems to be perfectly acceptable at around the 1200bar mark... Well saying that, I'd be perfectly happy with a normal 200bar DI engine running 200hp - it'll still do 55mpg easily! The noise is worse and the emissions are worse - that's the only thing I can attribute it to... But pushing to 1500, 1700, 2000 bar injection just seems like alot of work done, for not much gain in economy... Since an almost 1950 theory design, 175bar indirect injection engine is seeing 55mpg, yet a HDi is seeing maybe 65mpg - a 10mpg increase for 50 years technology and another thousand bar of injection pressure on top can't be right - it's got to be something else!
RE: Stage 1 map? - Midnightclub - 17-08-2012
But, to get the 55mpg you've also got a MUCH newer and more efficient turbo than the engine was originally designed to use, i expect if you setup the mapping properly with a VNT on a HDi i expect you'd probably expect a fair gain in economy
RE: Stage 1 map? - Ruan - 17-08-2012
That shouldn't improve economy - that just proves how bad the thermal efficiency of an XUD9 is!!!
That increase in boost pressure will just stop more heat being transferred to the head and ... Theoretically lower boost pressures would improve economy since there'd be less pumping losses....
Remember a DT is 21:1 compression ratio, with an added 8psi of boost... If you had that on a HDi, the thermal efficiency would be through the roof, it'd be amazing, but it's not needed, it can drop the pumping losses massively by not needing such a high CR. Another reason a HDi should be getting better efficiency than they are.
RE: Stage 1 map? - Midnightclub - 17-08-2012
Interesting.. There's got to be something people are missing when mapping these then, i know TB did a stage 1 map the other day (on t'other forum) which made 138.7bhp, something he knows which no one else does?
RE: Stage 1 map? - Ruan - 17-08-2012
138.7hp isn't unheard of for a stage 1 really?
RE: Stage 1 map? - Midnightclub - 17-08-2012
I'd say it is on a HDi, unless i'm missing something here? most 'stage 1' tunes that i've seen are between 120-130 max with a lot dyno'ing at around 119ish
RE: Stage 1 map? - Tom - 17-08-2012
This is proper interesting, keep talking lads lol
RE: Stage 1 map? - lolsteve - 17-08-2012
I've got it!!
The ecu weighs too much, therefore adding weight killing the extra mpg
RE: Stage 1 map? - Toms306 - 17-08-2012
Well your's is weighed down with all those fault codes Steve!