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+--- Thread: ph1 and ph2 engine loom connector differences (/showthread.php?tid=37573)
ph1 and ph2 engine loom connector differences - jirupa - 24-05-2020
Hey and greetings from a new member.
I have a -97 ph1 cabriolet that used to have a 2.0 8v engine. I've swapped a 2.0 16V engine (XU10J4R) from a Xantia in. Engine wiring loom is from a crashed 1998 Peugeot 306 that also had the same 16V engine. The engine swap is otherwise finished, but I'm currently waiting for an ECU to be mailed to me. Before testing whether the car starts, I need to know if the pin order of the engine wiring looms are different in a ph1 2.0 8V engine and the ph2 2.0 16V engine. What I mean is the pin order of the two round connectors that attach to the body. Hopefully someone has info that would help me.
If someone is wondering why even bother with such a mild engine swap, here's the backstory. Last summer I ran into a problem. The engine started making this awful clanking noise. I was sure that the bearings were done, so I got myself a spare engine from a Xantia. It later turned out that the noise didn't come from the bearings, but one of the spark plugs had physically broken, and parts of it dropped inside the cylinder! The parts eventually made their way out through the exhaust valves or got hammered in to the piston (haven't opened the engine yet to see what it looks like). Anyway, I had already got myself a spare engine and the old one was leaking oil from every orifice, so I thought I'll just swap the engine anyways even though the original engine was working. Changed the timing belt, camshaft and crankshaft seals, and clutch of the replacement engine so it should be good for a long time now.
RE: ph1 and ph2 engine loom connector differences - welshpug - 25-05-2020
if you have both wiring looms then you have all the information you need right in front of you.
RE: ph1 and ph2 engine loom connector differences - jirupa - 25-05-2020
I do have both wiring looms but I don't know how that helps me. The old engine has a Magneti Marelli ECU, and the new one has a Bosch MP 5.2, so I can't just measure if the pins on the loom connectors go to same pins on both ECUs.
RE: ph1 and ph2 engine loom connector differences - Mighty306 - 25-05-2020
Welcome to the club. You could maybe try
mapping connectors on both looms using a multimeter on continuity setting. Bit laborious I know but it might be the only way your question gets answered. (I don't have any access any more to a resource where I can look up the pin data I'm afraid).
RE: ph1 and ph2 engine loom connector differences - jirupa - 26-05-2020
(25-05-2020, 04:58 PM)Mighty306 Wrote: You could maybe try mapping connectors on both looms using a multimeter on continuity setting. Bit laborious I know but it might be the only way your question gets answered.
It is a bit laborous like you said and it won't give me a definitive answer. I would be able to map the sensors etc., but I assume some pins go directly to ECU. Without the pinouts of both of my ECUs and/or the loom connectors, I guess I'll just have to test and hope for the best
RE: ph1 and ph2 engine loom connector differences - Mighty306 - 27-05-2020
I can provide you with pin data for the XU10J4R (bosch MP5.2) but not for the XU10J2 (8v engine). Will that be any help?
RE: ph1 and ph2 engine loom connector differences - welshpug - 27-05-2020
very easy, the ecu will have very little connections to the 2 round plugs, I think tacho out, vehicle speed sensor, obd if it has anything, and immobiliser if it has anything.
compare the pin layout and wire number for each pin, ignore the ecu plug.
all you need is a multimeter and some way to label all the wires you have, and a notebook.
if you have an unlocked ecu, you can make it run with only 3 wires connected in those round plugs, switched live to power the double relay, fuel pump and starter motor.
double relay live comes from the alternator, engine loom has its own earth.
RE: ph1 and ph2 engine loom connector differences - jirupa - 27-05-2020
(27-05-2020, 09:41 AM)Mighty306 Wrote: I can provide you with pin data for the XU10J4R (bosch MP5.2) but not for the XU10J2 (8v engine). Will that be any help?
I would appreciate that. At least I would have something to start with.
Thanks welshpug. That is really good info.
RE: ph1 and ph2 engine loom connector differences - Mighty306 - 28-05-2020
I've PM'd you.
RE: ph1 and ph2 engine loom connector differences - jirupa - 14-06-2020
I finally got my ECU delivered and the car is running now. Everything seemed to be working so I took the car to an MOT test and it turns out the engine is running very rich. CO% is 10 times what it should be. Any ideas what could cause this besides lambda sensor? I'll replace the sensor anyways to be sure it's working, but I'm wondering if there's anything else that could cause symptoms like this.
RE: ph1 and ph2 engine loom connector differences - Mighty306 - 14-06-2020
Good to hear you got it running. Key sensors in mixture regulation apart from lambda are the coolant temp sensor, MAP (manifold pressure) sensor, and TPS (throttle position) sensors. Coolant temp would be the first suspect to check with significant over-fueling. They aren't particularly expensive to replace. It's the one with the green connectors on the thermostat housing.
Just had another thought. The XU10J4R came with 2 different sets of injectors. Earlier versions had 186cc injectors and later versions had 200cc injectors. If the ECU didn't come from the same car as the engine then they might not be a match. An ECU that thinks it has 186cc injectors but in reality has 200cc injectors wouldn't (from my understanding) be able to adjust the mixture to stoich. (The MP5.2 ECU apparently only has a very limited range of adaptation).
RE: ph1 and ph2 engine loom connector differences - jirupa - 14-06-2020
(14-06-2020, 03:35 PM)Mighty306 Wrote: Just had another thought. The XU10J4R came with 2 different sets of injectors. Earlier versions had 186cc injectors and later versions had 200cc injectors. If the ECU didn't come from the same car as the engine then they might not be a match. An ECU that thinks it has 186cc injectors but in reality has 200cc injectors wouldn't (from my understanding) be able to adjust the mixture to stoich. (The MP5.2 ECU apparently only has a very limited range of adaptation).
Hmm.. it could be the injectors then. The ECU I bought is this one (MP 5.2). The engine comes from a 1996 Xantia that had a Bosch MP 5.1.1 ECU. A bit of googling shows that the injectors changed 11/1997, so I guess it could be that my engine has the earlier injectors but my ECU thinks it has the newer ones. Would this have the same effect?
RE: ph1 and ph2 engine loom connector differences - Mighty306 - 14-06-2020
The ECU you linked to (0 261 204 652) was used on the slightly later XU10J4R with 200cc injectors on the 306. I didn't know an MP5.1 ECU had been used with other models and don't therefore know if there were other differences apart from the injectors.
If anything I would have thought that the ECU you have working with older injectors would have meant less fuel was being delivered than the ECU expected. That's assuming both used same pulse times. Either way you should certainly get the correct injectors to match with that ECU. You'd need Bosch 0280155803 injectors. There's a cheap set here if they'll ship overseas. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Peugeot-306-2-0-16v-Xsi-Set-of-Injectors-Low-Miles/254373024519?hash=item3b39d05307:g:rHkAAOSwYmZXM2TR
RE: ph1 and ph2 engine loom connector differences - jirupa - 15-06-2020
(14-06-2020, 09:53 PM)Mighty306 Wrote: If anything I would have thought that the ECU you have working with older injectors would have meant less fuel was being delivered than the ECU expected. That's assuming both used same pulse times. Either way you should certainly get the correct injectors to match with that ECU. You'd need Bosch 0280155803 injectors.
Thanks. I went ahead and ordered a new set of injectors. They seemed to be quite cheap even as new (about 20€ a piece). Also ordered the temp, throttle position and air pressure sensors along with a new fuel pressure regulator. I hope these will finally get my car ready for the summer
RE: ph1 and ph2 engine loom connector differences - Mighty306 - 15-06-2020
Re the MAP, they changed the connector types between phase 2 & 3. I'll look up the part numbers later if you want to check you've ordered the right one.
RE: ph1 and ph2 engine loom connector differences - jirupa - 15-06-2020
(15-06-2020, 06:47 AM)Mighty306 Wrote: Re the MAP, they changed the connector types between phase 2 & 3. I'll look up the part numbers later if you want to check you've ordered the right one.
The one I ordered is the one with part number 1920AN, which now that I look at it is the newer one (phase 3?). I assume I just ordered the wrong one
RE: ph1 and ph2 engine loom connector differences - welshpug - 15-06-2020
€20 injectors will be cheap chinese crap, you will be better off with an used set and getting them tested snd clesned
RE: ph1 and ph2 engine loom connector differences - Mighty306 - 15-06-2020
Same goes for sensors. Ideally go for same as original, or best quality aftermarket. The cheap ones are likely to make the car run worse not better. (Learned that lesson quite a few years ago). Original MAP & TPS were Bosch. Not sure about coolant temp.
Re the injectors, where have you purchased them from? Mr Auto were selling off some original Bosch ones quite cheap a while back, but even then not at the €20 mark.
RE: ph1 and ph2 engine loom connector differences - jirupa - 15-06-2020
(15-06-2020, 12:27 PM)Mighty306 Wrote: Same goes for sensors. Ideally go for same as original, or best quality aftermarket. The cheap ones are likely to make the car run worse not better. (Learned that lesson quite a few years ago). Original MAP & TPS were Bosch. Not sure about coolant temp.
Re the injectors, where have you purchased them from? Mr Auto were selling off some original Bosch ones quite cheap a while back, but even then not at the €20 mark.
I try to always get parts from Bosch, Valeo etc., manufacturers that I know and trust. The injectors, fuel pressure regulator and MAP I ordered are all Bosch. TPS is Delphi and temp sensor Valeo. I've been ordering my spares from this Estonian store. Prices are good and they deliver quickly to Finland. Don't know if they deliver elsewhere in Europe, but at least they don't seem to have English language available on their site. I've used autodoc previously, but too often the parts are NOT from the manufacturer I've ordered them from, and they are so slow to deliver.
edit: Ok the injectors were not 20€ a piece, they were 21,32€ a piece
RE: ph1 and ph2 engine loom connector differences - Mighty306 - 15-06-2020
Sounds like you've ordered good quality parts & should be fine. I had a look at the site you linked but unfortunately a lack of Estonian language skills was a problem! Looks like a legit site though.
Re the MAP, 1920AN is the later one used on phase 3's. If it doesn't fit then the earlier one is part number 19209H.
RE: ph1 and ph2 engine loom connector differences - jirupa - 22-06-2020
Today I changed the sensors and injectors and took the car to an MOT test again and it passed! It's finally ready for the summer. Well.. almost. There's still some stuff to sort out like the roof and some other cosmetic things, but more about those later in another thread. For now, I'll just enjoy the the sunny weather and my new engine
RE: ph1 and ph2 engine loom connector differences - Mighty306 - 22-06-2020
Good news
RE: ph1 and ph2 engine loom connector differences - green_enya - 07-02-2021
hi there!
got same problems, but I have 1.8 lfz(xu7 8v) old engine
and I want to install rfv(2.0 16 v from 605 1995) Bosch 5.1
so I also looking for some wiring diagram
and I can't find any scheme of that connectors
and, theoretica, I can start the 2.0 engine, using a loops from 1.8?
they are the same, but I want use an ecu from 1.8 to launch 2.0
is that possible?
thanks in advance
RE: ph1 and ph2 engine loom connector differences - Mighty306 - 08-02-2021
Hopefully someone can answer your question. If not you can sign up to Autodata for a 1 month trial for very little money (£9.99 in the UK). They have a fairly comprehensive set of wiring diagrams you can access. If you do sign up for the trial make sure you find the cancellation form n cancel within the month, otherwise you will get charged a lot!