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+--- Thread: Stage 3 head lift? (/showthread.php?tid=33081)
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Stage 3 head lift? - dr_jekyll - 22-01-2016
Ok as alot of you know im now currently collecting parts for my stage 3 hdi on a gt2052s turbo. My main concern i think ive overlooked is head lift. Running 28 psi will i be expecting to see the head lift on the engine? Anyone with experience please
RE: Stage 3 head lift? - Piggy - 22-01-2016
28psi on a GT20... Doooood my main concern would be the turbo!
But yes...obviously you'll need ARPs
RE: Stage 3 head lift? - dr_jekyll - 22-01-2016
Was speaking to jamma about it and reckons there good for it??? Hes already written the map for it that will need tweaking
RE: Stage 3 head lift? - Piggy - 22-01-2016
"their good for it"
Ok. Fair enough.
RE: Stage 3 head lift? - dr_jekyll - 22-01-2016
Honestly what can they take as will msg him straight away
RE: Stage 3 head lift? - Piggy - 22-01-2016
Have you looked at the maps and done the math?
That would be a good thing to do, for yourself and your setup
RE: Stage 3 head lift? - dr_jekyll - 22-01-2016
Dude i do not understand mapping at all. I just dont want the thing going pop
Will try running it at a lesser boost first a see how i get on. If its too smokey will have to ask him to tweak it up later
RE: Stage 3 head lift? - bashbarnard - 22-01-2016
Even if they're "good for it" personally id be throwing a set on for reliability. Do it now while you have chance. You don't want headlift trust me.
RE: Stage 3 head lift? - dr_jekyll - 22-01-2016
Ok cheers. Is it possible to replace the studs without unsetterling the gasket?
RE: Stage 3 head lift? - Anton - 22-01-2016
Too much boost, 24-25 max realistically
RE: Stage 3 head lift? - Ruan - 22-01-2016
Nothing to do with whether you'll be lifting the cylinder head, I'd be significantly more concerned about exploding the turbo!
![[Image: GT2052-48-C.jpg]](http://www.theboombopshop.com/v/vspfiles/photos/garrett/GT2052-48-C.jpg)
Using: https://www.rbracing-rsr.com/calcboost.html
185hp, 17.5:1 AFR, .44 (being nice!) BSFC, 150*F Post IC, 88% VE, 4000RPM, 122ci (2.0 litres) = 28.44psi Boost required, 23.74lb/min airflow.
Both off the ends of the compressor map, you're into unchartered territory, so basically you're now hoping the turbo is nice and strong to deal with probably higher than rated shaft speed and will be blowing hot-ish air.
OFC you can tune these to lower than 17.5:1, which is where you'll claw it back, but you want to be watching EGTs if so. The above figures are "safe" almost "OEM" settings, so I'm being conservative...
IMHO it's often not worth putting ARPs in unless you've got the engine in pieces anyway... If the engine is in bits, yes do it, if it's together, wait and see if you get problems, not worth the expense... Replacing one at a time is more likely to disturb the gasket too, so you'll be wondering if it did have issues 'was it because I swapped them one at a time?'
RE: Stage 3 head lift? - dr_jekyll - 22-01-2016
(22-01-2016, 10:29 AM)Ruan Wrote: Nothing to do with whether you'll be lifting the cylinder head, I'd be significantly more concerned about exploding the turbo!Cheers ruan, thats alot to try understand this time of morning. I dont even know where i start looking to understand these diagrams tbh
Using: https://www.rbracing-rsr.com/calcboost.html
185hp, 17.5:1 AFR, .44 (being nice!) BSFC, 150*F Post IC, 88% VE, 4000RPM, 122ci (2.0 litres) = 28.44psi Boost required, 23.74lb/min airflow.
Both off the ends of the compressor map, you're into unchartered territory, so basically you're now hoping the turbo is nice and strong to deal with probably higher than rated shaft speed and will be blowing hot-ish air.
OFC you can tune these to lower than 17.5:1, which is where you'll claw it back, but you want to be watching EGTs if so. The above figures are "safe" almost "OEM" settings, so I'm being conservative...
IMHO it's often not worth putting them in unless you've got the engine in pieces anyway... If the engine is in bits, yes do it, if it's together, wait and see if you get problems, not worth the expense... Replacing one at a time is more likely to disturb the gasket too, so you'll be wondering if it did have issues 'was it because I swapped them one at a time?'
RE: Stage 3 head lift? - Ruan - 22-01-2016
Should probably remind, Pressure Ratio (value up left of compressor map) is for arguments sake for this thread - is boost minus 1 bar, so PR2.2 would be 1.2bar boost. So 28.44psi = near as dammit 1.9bar, so PR2.9 on that compressor map.
RE: Stage 3 head lift? - Piggy - 22-01-2016
(22-01-2016, 10:21 AM)bashbarnard Wrote: Even if they're "good for it" personally id be throwing a set on for reliability. Do it now while you have chance. You don't want headlift trust me.
"good for it" relates to the blower.
I was more concerned about the GT20.
More psi doesn't mean more power
RE: Stage 3 head lift? - zx_volcane - 22-01-2016
Here is a contrasting opinion for you - you'll be fine replacing headbolts with studs 1 at a time. With 9 other bolts torqued up the chances of anything moving are slim.
I also ran a gt2052s at around 27/28psi on an xud. Turbo went on after at similar boost iirc, and had many a mile put on it. No doubt it was slightly out of its efficiency range and on the cusp of shitting itself, but hey ho. Tbf you should be able to get away with far less boost on a hdi for similar powers.
Of course, your milage may vary ...
Best thing you could do it monitor EGT and backpressure - you'd see if you're in the 'danger zone'. Oh and keep a spare turbo in stock.
God bless the internet
RE: Stage 3 head lift? - dr_jekyll - 22-01-2016
(22-01-2016, 11:20 AM)zx_volcane Wrote: Here is a contrasting opinion for you - you'll be fine replacing headbolts with studs 1 at a time. With 9 other bolts torqued up the chances of anything moving are slim.Cheers fella, exhaust is gonna be a 2.5" stainless with a tiny pro fusion silencer (cherry bomb style) that shouldnt hinder anything. Do back pressure gauges exsist as never heard of them? And egt gauge is on the list and will be watched religously.
I also ran a gt2052s at around 27/28psi on an xud. Turbo went on after at similar boost iirc, and had many a mile put on it. No doubt it was slightly out of its efficiency range and on the cusp of shitting itself, but hey ho. Tbf you should be able to get away with far less boost on a hdi for similar powers.
Of course, your milage may vary ...
Best thing you could do it monitor EGT and backpressure - you'd see if you're in the 'danger zone'. Oh and keep a spare turbo in stock.
God bless the internet
As for keeping a turbo spare will have to buy another unit in prep then. Could i get away with keeping a spare core or should i expect it to blow beyond a chra replacement?
RE: Stage 3 head lift? - zx_volcane - 22-01-2016
You can use any pressure gauge to measure back pressure or EMP - even cheapy hydraulic gauges ..etc you'll want one that has a max range of about 60-100psi
Depends how your turbo shits itself, I've had some vnts that have sheared the comp housings completely off, so needed whole turbo to bolt back on.
RE: Stage 3 head lift? - bashbarnard - 22-01-2016
I thought the head was off this for some reason? I ran my gt2052s at 1.6 bar most the time and was fine for 10k. Id already lifted the head before I put arps in so the gasket didn't hold up. I also done my headbokts one at a time but was to late it had already ruined my gasket.
RE: Stage 3 head lift? - dr_jekyll - 22-01-2016
(22-01-2016, 11:35 AM)bashbarnard Wrote: I thought the head was off this for some reason? I ran my gt2052s at 1.6 bar most the time and was fine for 10k. Id already lifted the head before I put arps in so the gasket didn't hold up. I also done my headbokts one at a time but was to late it had already ruined my gasket.Did the 1.6 bar lift the head?
RE: Stage 3 head lift? - bashbarnard - 22-01-2016
Yes. But only once or twice on a 9mm pump and loads on my 11mm pump. But remember the pressures are different between hdi and xud. Its less in a hdi when combustion happens. Ruan can explain that one better than me though.
RE: Stage 3 head lift? - dr_jekyll - 22-01-2016
Trying to get hold of frosty as hes tried and tested
If its a case of arps i can get the turbo on for the shows but wont be able to uplaod the map to run higher boost and fueling till i get studs
RE: Stage 3 head lift? - Midnightclub - 22-01-2016
Just keep in mind, XUD's seem to have much more issues with head lifting than HDi's - I can't recall many if any that have, although if someone can find an example I'm happy to be proven wrong
RE: Stage 3 head lift? - dr_jekyll - 22-01-2016
(22-01-2016, 12:09 PM)Midnightclub Wrote: Just keep in mind, XUD's seem to have much more issues with head lifting than HDi's - I can't recall many if any that have, although if someone can find an example I'm happy to be proven wrongThink this is just a safer than sorry case, easier to scrub up £200 for studs no than scrub £400 to rebuild the engine
RE: Stage 3 head lift? - Jonny81191 - 22-01-2016
My 2 pence, having done the exact same build, would be to run at 24 psi and map it up to suit. Don't go for a higher power figure than you can run on the turbo, otherwise the upgrade is fairly pointless. You'll get 170BHP (or so) on 24psi, and it'll hang on a lot better than if you push the figures up.
By all means, go for 200BHP. But it's a different set of specifications than the build you've started. You'd need a bigger turbo (and probably a better exhaust manifold), more fuelling mods (££££), head studs, modification to the head to stop it shitting the valvetrain, forged internals and crank modifications if we're going above about 230BHP. Etc...
And feel free to prove me wrong, I just think you'll run into issues very quickly if you run too much power/boost/EMP/EGT etc...
RE: Stage 3 head lift? - welshpug - 22-01-2016
more valves less boost.
RE: Stage 3 head lift? - Jonny81191 - 22-01-2016
(22-01-2016, 12:41 PM)welshpug Wrote: more valves less boost.
Or that. Although you'll have a different set of issues going 16v
RE: Stage 3 head lift? - dr_jekyll - 22-01-2016
Thanks for the help on this one guys
RE: Stage 3 head lift? - JTaylor2005 - 22-01-2016
What is the possibility of going 16v on these engines? Change the head from something else onto it? And then run a lower boost but naturally higher flowing head?
RE: Stage 3 head lift? - HDi--Power - 22-01-2016
Arp's really wont be necessary, I don't think anyone has had head lift or gasket failure from running 200hp plus, the issues all stemmed from elsewhere.
RE: Stage 3 head lift? - bashbarnard - 22-01-2016
16v head is relativity easy. get 16 vlaver engine from later car. remove head pistons etc. out into 306 block. run managment to suit or mtdi