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+--- Thread: Clutch chat (/showthread.php?tid=28179)
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Clutch chat - Piggy - 07-12-2014
I'm sticking it in here as I'm open to XUD and HDi clutch forms and theres no gearbox or transmission section still.
So, clutches. CGs stage THREE clutch is only rated to +40%.
So its not coping well with 350ft lbs of torque at 3000rpm. At all. Not at all. Its not coping!
Whats my options here?!
I am already looking into doing a hydro conversion as a heavier pressure plate is likely to be part of an upgrade.
But who and what next?!
What are other using who run that sort of torque?
RE: Clutch chat - Dum-Dum - 07-12-2014
Re drilled BMW 330/530d flywheel to fit your crank and then the 240mm clutch off one of those or even a paddle version of the BMW clutch.
You might even get away with using the standard release mechanism although it will be heavy on our weedy little legs.
Those cars standard run more torque than you and map to 450lb/ft on a standard clutch. You can get a luk clutch for one for about £100 so it'll be cheap.
RE: Clutch chat - Rippthrough - 07-12-2014
You'd need something like a 2600-3000lb clamp load on a typical sintered paddle clutch material, that's a heavy plate - we ran a 2600lb on the buggy for years and it was a bitch trying to shunt it around in the pits.
You might get down to 2000lb with some proper ceramic pucks but I don't know anyone that offers a Pug clutch using them, tend to be race clutches only, I tried to do something a while ago using them, but as the puck mountings are thicker than usual to take the load I couldn't get down to the standard stack height without some alterations to the flywheel, etc.
Depending on what you have to spend, a twin disc conversion might be an idea.
RE: Clutch chat - Poodle - 08-12-2014
Haven't you already got a paddle clutch? Just buy a proper one rather than more CG shite.
RE: Clutch chat - Piggy - 08-12-2014
Er yea, stage3 CG paddle clutch
RE: Clutch chat - Seb_Ryan - 08-12-2014
I dont know what was in my alfa, but it lasted 40k and was a paddle, dont think it was a cg though as it is a very good quality one, if i remember later ill have a nosey through history.. It was 480 for clutch kit mind you. I need to get it rolling roaded but its mega torquey. Was also unsprung
RE: Clutch chat - Piggy - 08-12-2014
I think a uprated pressure plate may be the solution if the CG kit only uses a standard valeo pressure plate!?!!
So reccomendations on a company or decent make of pressure plate?
RE: Clutch chat - nominous - 08-12-2014
(07-12-2014, 12:08 PM)Dum-Dum Wrote: Re drilled BMW 330/530d flywheel to fit your crank and then the 240mm clutch off one of those or even a paddle version of the BMW clutch.
Has that been done or is it just a suggestion?
I was wondering what the biggest size flywheel is that can fit in the bell housing.
Is the standard flywheel much smaller than the bell ?
Can the XUD fly be upgraded to a bigger size ?
Hydro is a done deal for me (just figuring out how exactly to do it first) as my clutch pedal will be hydro.
RE: Clutch chat - bigcheez2k3 - 08-12-2014
(08-12-2014, 11:05 AM)nominous Wrote:(07-12-2014, 12:08 PM)Dum-Dum Wrote: Re drilled BMW 330/530d flywheel to fit your crank and then the 240mm clutch off one of those or even a paddle version of the BMW clutch.
Has that been done or is it just a suggestion?
I was wondering what the biggest size flywheel is that can fit in the bell housing.
Is the standard flywheel much smaller than the bell ?
Can the XUD fly be upgraded to a bigger size ?
Hydro is a done deal for me (just figuring out how exactly to do it first) as my clutch pedal will be hydro.
Seen Grant's project thread for his old car? He did hydro on that.
RE: Clutch chat - nominous - 08-12-2014
Yeah, I saw that. It's one of the links in my wiki of interesting posts.
I'm still looking for a better way (no offence to Grant), something more like removing and replacing the existing arm.
RE: Clutch chat - zx_volcane - 08-12-2014
Hydro clutch would be win, piece together the puzzle and find out an easy(ish) way of making it happen with a nice modern 6 speed box.
I'm deffo interested in making that happen
RE: Clutch chat - Dum-Dum - 08-12-2014
If you want a hydro setup just nick the bits off one of the 406 HDi's that came with it
RE: Clutch chat - Piggy - 08-12-2014
Yeah I am making up a list of bits for a scrappy run. Inc some hydro bits.
A 206 master may work as its quite small and neat.
I dont want it part cable!
Not sure Im bothered about 6spd for now
RE: Clutch chat - nominous - 08-12-2014
(08-12-2014, 11:51 AM)zx_volcane Wrote: Hydro clutch would be win, piece together the puzzle and find out an easy(ish) way of making it happen with a nice modern 6 speed box.
Boxes for PSA stuff I'm finding difficult. there seems to be two main codes that folks use for everything, but there is a more in depth code which is harder to track down.
ie: BE3, BE4 or ML5.
But it's more complex than that. The usual story of folks knowing using short hand - I'm so guilty of that with Hondas.
I aint worried about the pedal side. For me that's simple - see avatar.
I need a box ideally standard which mounts to an XUD, isn't much bigger than the standard pug box, but has cable shifters (aware that you can convert to his reasonably easily if the thread I found are true) and a hydro clutch already fitted.
I'll rep anyone that can point me in the right direction
RE: Clutch chat - welshpug - 08-12-2014
ml5 suits your criteria, would need to be from a vehicle with a suitable bellhousing pattern and angle.
shafts and subframe nees alteration.
a later small van or ph2 xsara & 406 would use a be4 with a hydro clutch and can use cables, clutches are smaller than ml though.
RE: Clutch chat - Poodle - 08-12-2014
Helix and sachs have always been used for the HDis with good results.
But you should totally do a full ml box conversion.
RE: Clutch chat - nominous - 08-12-2014
(08-12-2014, 01:06 PM)welshpug Wrote: ml5 suits your criteria, would need to be from a vehicle with a suitable bellhousing pattern and angle.Hopeful that someone who has taken a XUD11 knows of a good donor, or was more hopefully someone took the whole car
Quote:shafts and subframe nees alteration.No problem as not going into a PUG but the Honda on the left.
The only trouble being if it fits the Honda of course...
I've been looking at photos of it as it seemed like the good bet, but it may hit on bits of Honda that don't exist in PUG world.
ie: I've got a rear subframe which is actually sitting proud of the bulkhead. Bit weird for a Honda that anyway...
But that itself means my turbo is over the gearbox regardless of the box I'm gonna use.
Quote:a later small van or ph2 xsara & 406 would use a be4 with a hydro clutch and can use cables, clutches are smaller than ml though.Great. Same size clutch and fly as the standard XUD BE3 then, or bigger?
If I read correctly the XUD is 215mm and the HDi is only 200mm. So I'd swap it out for the BE3 if it were smaller sure.
ML5 is 230mm ?
Jesus. I run a bigger clutch with less torque on the hondas !!
B18 in the integra typeR is circa 247mm stock.
Faffing about with clutches, if the bell housing supports it a bigger fly is the first step.
RE: Clutch chat - Fooby - 08-12-2014
(07-12-2014, 11:56 AM)Piggy Wrote: I'm sticking it in here as I'm open to XUD and HDi clutch forms and theres no gearbox or transmission section still.
Edited the section, just for you. And moved your thread
RE: Clutch chat - zx_volcane - 08-12-2014
If you're going to faff about changing box and driveshafts and converting to hydraulic, then surely a 6 speed would make sense while you're at it
Otherwise go for a twin plate clutch, it'll be relatively expensive but will handle a load of torque and it'll be bolt on which will save you much headache and time going the other route
RE: Clutch chat - nominous - 08-12-2014
6 speeds I thought were only for the petrols ?
Or were rather rare.
And didn't lower the RPM much at 70 (indicated) when compared to a HDi box (very similar for both) ?
RE: Clutch chat - zx_volcane - 08-12-2014
(08-12-2014, 04:04 PM)nominous Wrote: 6 speeds I thought were only for the petrols ?
Or were rather rare.
And didn't lower the RPM much at 70 (indicated) when compared to a HDi box (very similar for both) ?
ML6 box from 406 HDI or similar
It'd be all about the ratios for me, hoping for relatively close 1-5 with a 6 speed for cruise.
The standard ratios in the DT box aren't great
RE: Clutch chat - nominous - 08-12-2014
ML6.... argh !!!!!!
RE: Clutch chat - welshpug - 08-12-2014
unfortunately the ML6 is from vehicles with much larger wheels, so they don't actually have that tall a final drive gearing.
RE: Clutch chat - darrenjlobb - 08-12-2014
I have a complete ML box and set of shafts if anyone is interested. Never got used!
RE: Clutch chat - Piggy - 08-12-2014
ML6 yeah darren?
RE: Clutch chat - zx_volcane - 08-12-2014
(08-12-2014, 09:54 PM)darrenjlobb Wrote: I have a complete ML box and set of shafts if anyone is interested. Never got used!
ok this needs buying and converting as a prototype for us all
RE: Clutch chat - Piggy - 08-12-2014
Dont you mean 'donating'
RE: Clutch chat - 2.1dturbo - 22-01-2015
I'm running ml bell housing mated to c5 2.2 hdi gearbox, only 5 speed but well geared, there are c5 6 speeds, I just couldn't find one
RE: Clutch chat - zx_volcane - 22-01-2015
(22-01-2015, 06:04 PM)2.1dturbo Wrote: I'm running ml bell housing mated to c5 2.2 hdi gearbox, only 5 speed but well geared, there are c5 6 speeds, I just couldn't find one
You don't happen to have any photos of the conversion do you, or what you did about clutch combinations / driveshafts?
RE: Clutch chat - fatlapit - 22-01-2015
helix paddle will work fine