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+--- Thread: A stage 1 & a half?! (/showthread.php?tid=21916)
A stage 1 & a half?! - C.A.R. - 05-03-2014
So a stage 1 is a remap, and a stage 2 is an intercooler and another remap (essentially), but more often than not I see 'stage 2' project threads resulting in unreliable and eventually f*cked cars, with the emphasis usually on killing clutch plates.
Now with C2Ks help I recently installed an OEM clutch kit and I'm reluctant to spend out again for the same of a little bit of power.
I'm confident enough to fit and plumb an intercooler though and that appeals to me.
I want just a little more umfff, somewhere I imagine between 130-140bhp and some more torque but not enough to upset the clutch.
What should I be looking at/for?
RE: A stage 1 & a half?! - Midnightclub - 05-03-2014
What you're looking for is basically a torque reduced stage 2, it will still be capable of about 150hp but will only be around 220ish lb/ft of torque, saving the clutch that bit more..
A stage 1 & a half?! - Razorback_Rob - 05-03-2014
Like midnightclub said. Many of those who are scared to cross the power/reliability border of hdi remaps go for limited torque stage 2. Those who wish to go beyond usually swap out for an uprated clutch. Most popular I've seen being a paddle clutch variant.
RE: A stage 1 & a half?! - Midnightclub - 05-03-2014
Repping a stock valeo @ 280 lb/ft /livingdangerously
RE: A stage 1 & a half?! - ADV_93 - 05-03-2014
I'd put a paddle in it instead of OE. They only last so long once mapped. Saves you pulling the gearbox out again when you want a stage 3... Which you inevitably will...
RE: A stage 1 & a half?! - Tom - 05-03-2014
Even an intercooler on a stage one will be better. You have that little bit more low down grunt with a cooler.
RE: A stage 1 & a half?! - C.A.R. - 05-03-2014
Really? I read somewhere that an intercooler without remap/boost controller could damage the turbo? I don't understand why it would, I just remember someone saying it!
So 'cooler, pipe work and clamps is what, £100-150?
RE: A stage 1 & a half?! - jammapic - 05-03-2014
If you intercooled it, you'd be mad to not go either full torque stage 2 or limited depending on clutch...
RE: A stage 1 & a half?! - C.A.R. - 05-03-2014
This is the thing though buddy, I've (or we've) literally only just put a new LUK clutch in there and I really don't what to be doing all that again to be honest! I want to keep it nice and reliable...
RE: A stage 1 & a half?! - Tom - 05-03-2014
At the end of the day it depends if you want to spend the money and time for little gain. But then how long are you going to keep the car? Maybe in the future you will put a better clutch in and go full fat? Or you could just go limited torque...
RE: A stage 1 & a half?! - Connor - 05-03-2014
Limited torque stage 2 is perfect if you want extra power without much risk. Ive driven dannys/emmas limited stage 2 and its quick enough and its been going for, what 2 years since we fitted the cooler?
RE: A stage 1 & a half?! - Mr Whippy - 06-03-2014
I've seen 275lbft dyno on a new LuK without problems. And that is a decent dyno dynamics set up that is ramping up slowly.
The big issue for the clutch is as much how fast you apply high torque loads. Once you get a bit of slip it'll slip away faster and faster. So a gentle torque curve shape can still be large.
However many people like the 'kick' too, which doesn't treat clutches as nicely.
In the end you'll easily be able to run 150bhp/240lbft with a new LuK clutch without any problems at all. Just don't abuse it and it'll last for years.
I have one customer who ran 275lbft on his new LuK and apart from a few rare occasions where it slipped a tiny bit in 5th up hill at 2500rpm, it was fine 3 years later!
In the end I think the stage 2's drive just as well and perform just as nicely with a lowered torque peak vs those with fancy clutches.
I'd rather spend my money saved not buying a fancy clutch on a hybrid turbo to add power up top
Dave
RE: A stage 1 & a half?! - Midnightclub - 06-03-2014
Connor, ours is on a full fat stage 2 and has been since about a month before it was dyno'd.. although it does have a fairly chronic boost leak.. but yeah, that's been going for over 2 years/30k+??
RE: A stage 1 & a half?! - ADV_93 - 06-03-2014
A limited stage 2 map on a HDi isn't helped out by a standard turbo!
RE: A stage 1 & a half?! - Midnightclub - 06-03-2014
What?
RE: A stage 1 & a half?! - ADV_93 - 06-03-2014
My mate got his HDi mapped to a limited torque stage 2 on a K03. My stage 1 D Turbo would stick with him until 5th gear. Then he fitted an R70 fuel pump and a K03S, no added mapping and it walked from me.
Inb4 experience not what everyone on here says.
RE: A stage 1 & a half?! - Midnightclub - 06-03-2014
Riiiiight.....
Having personally owned/still do a stage 2 HDi, driven a few stage 1 DT.. they're miles appart in performance!
The stock blower is good for up to 170hp ish so a limited stage 2 isn't exactly pushing it by any means... so something had to be f*cked
RE: A stage 1 & a half?! - Poodle - 06-03-2014
Yeah, either yours is stronger than what most would call stage 1 or there's something else up with his hdi. My "stage 1+" has just about got the edge over most stage 1 dts, at a guess i'm a good 25bhp short of what i'd expect from a stage 2, so a substantial difference.
RE: A stage 1 & a half?! - Toms306 - 06-03-2014
It doesn't necessarily say much about the car/engine tbh, just that your mate is a shit driver and doesn't know how to use a gearbox...
RE: A stage 1 & a half?! - silverzx - 06-03-2014
I thought my stage 2 limited torque "whippy map" HDi was pretty damn quick!
GT15, 150bhp/240lbft, same clutch the car came with (stock?).
Slipped with full fat torque map, didn't slip at all with limited torque map.
I'd say it was probably as quick as my old T25/9mm/FMIC 1.9DT if not quicker and was a hell of a lot nicer to drive!
RE: A stage 1 & a half?! - Mr Whippy - 06-03-2014
(06-03-2014, 11:49 AM)ADV_93 Wrote: My mate got his HDi mapped to a limited torque stage 2 on a K03. My stage 1 D Turbo would stick with him until 5th gear. Then he fitted an R70 fuel pump and a K03S, no added mapping and it walked from me.
Inb4 experience not what everyone on here says.
If his old turbo was not working well then it'd result in poor MAF readings and a low resultant power.
Fitting a good high spec turbo would suddenly give the higher MAF values and the fuelling would rise to what it should have been all along.
Setting any car up really needs some consideration to checking everything is working correctly first.
A 'correct' stage 2 should always be around 150bhp and 240lbft as a starting point.
Dave
RE: A stage 1 & a half?! - pro_steve - 06-03-2014
How about 140 for a stage 1.5 with water methanol injection but no intercooler? http://www.hdi-tuning.co.uk/ecu-remapping/custom-remaps/images1/dynoprintouts/watermap1.jpg
I quite liked the way it drove, however the water pump costs more than it does to do a stage 2. Easy though.
RE: A stage 1 & a half?! - Poodle - 06-03-2014
More like 160/270 these days Dave.
Edit: Not to mention can look completely oem under the bonnet, Steve, stealthy!
RE: A stage 1 & a half?! - pro_steve - 06-03-2014
haha, there are far too many people quoting well over 300lbf.ft, it's just not really plausible when TB had gears stripping at 420 Nm didn't he IIRC?(310Lbf.ft) And that was with a gt20 VNT!
I'm going to have to stick a VNT on one of those when I get around to it, after setting up the 1.6 HDI from the bottom up I know more than one human should know about turbo control systems. I dream about it now
RE: A stage 1 & a half?! - mcglynn - 06-03-2014
Pass the knowledge on steve, honestly we oblige...
RE: A stage 1 & a half?! - Niall - 06-03-2014
(06-03-2014, 04:49 PM)Toms306 Wrote: It doesn't necessarily say much about the car/engine tbh, just that your mate is a shit driver and doesn't know how to use a gearbox...
Says the lad that NEEDS traction control because he can't pull away with out wheel spinning?
RE: A stage 1 & a half?! - Toms306 - 06-03-2014
(06-03-2014, 10:41 PM)Niall Wrote:(06-03-2014, 04:49 PM)Toms306 Wrote: It doesn't necessarily say much about the car/engine tbh, just that your mate is a shit driver and doesn't know how to use a gearbox...
Says the lad that NEEDS traction control because he can't pull away with out wheel spinning?
I never said I was a good driver.
God I miss traction control.
RE: A stage 1 & a half?! - Mr Whippy - 10-03-2014
(06-03-2014, 09:36 PM)pro_steve Wrote: How about 140 for a stage 1.5 with water methanol injection but no intercooler? http://www.hdi-tuning.co.uk/ecu-remapping/custom-remaps/images1/dynoprintouts/watermap1.jpg
I quite liked the way it drove, however the water pump costs more than it does to do a stage 2. Easy though.
Chris Bryn did that about 5 years ago iirc, and I did the remap for it.
It used a nice technique whereby he'd turn up the boost on an MBC and the raised MAF would expose the fuellings which would otherwise be dodgy on a stage 1, but at that point he'd turn on the w/m.
So you'd turn down the boost when w/m ran out and it'd not allow those big fuellings.
Unfortunately he never did refine this and fit an FMIC and hybrid turbo instead which really was a better solution.
Imagine if you ran out of w/m and forgot to turn the boost down or something hehe.
I'm not sure if there are any other really nice ways to turn down the fuelling. I know the EDC15 BMW's run EGT limiters, maybe some way to enable one of those?! Somehow.
Gah, it'd be just nice to get the SDK and recompile a new software for this engine hehe
Hmmmm
Dave
(06-03-2014, 10:31 PM)pro_steve Wrote: haha, there are far too many people quoting well over 300lbf.ft, it's just not really plausible when TB had gears stripping at 420 Nm didn't he IIRC?(310Lbf.ft) And that was with a gt20 VNT!
I'm going to have to stick a VNT on one of those when I get around to it, after setting up the 1.6 HDI from the bottom up I know more than one human should know about turbo control systems. I dream about it now
I agree... I've seen a few questionable dyno results with inertia dynos and corrected figures (double whammy of questionable figures) showing way over 300lbft... but all the evidence from past experience suggests this isn't really possible.
In the end a clutch is designed to break before the gearbox (or slip), but given we fit these crazy clutches we then need to protect our gearbox through correct tuning.
Given others have already said they've had problems at 300lbft+ I think it's reasonable to say that is a good place to stop.
Also from the shapes of the torque curves and the really short gearing I don't see much benefit in all that torque any way. Wheel spin in 1st/2nd/3rd in the dry, probably 4th in the wet in a straight line haha... hmmmm. AND the risk of gearbox failure... not exactly a good long-term plan to tune a car to failure hehe
Dave
RE: A stage 1 & a half?! - pro_steve - 12-03-2014
I agree Dave, it's also worth considering that you can't really get enough air for more than 300 Lbf.ft with the standard turbo, not cleanly any way. In fact quite a bit less than that, if only dynamo meters were standardised and they all read the same results, that would be much easier haha.
For the water methanol I did originally try to wire up a thermocouple with hysteresis to switch on the water pump and then not switch off until substantially lower, however it took so long to pick up the heat through a thermo couple that I gave up and bought a boost switch which did the job perfectly. I think the trick to the water map I made was a lot of advance and a lot of boost. Without the intercooler you can be cheeky and push the turbo a little but further because you aren't accounting for the losses across the pipe work and the cooler so you can effectively go for a couple of PSI more. That was on a K03 though, they seem to be indestructible (touch wood).
The problem with the WM is that it costs more than the intercooler set up and unless you have a temp gauge visible at all times you're constantly worrying if the pump is working, think I had a red LED IIRC.