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Non starter - tinysomniac - 30-01-2014

Hi all, again.

I've got a major problem with my HDi, beers and ever lasting gratitude to anyone who can help get me back on the road. Here's the details -

Drove car last couple of weeks no problems, not down on power, no coughing or spluttering. Nipped to the shop and back one day with no trouble, parked up, came back 3 days later and my problems began.

The engine will crank but not fire.

I've checked It has diesel and I've topped the diesel up - just in case
Tried jump starting it in case battery didn't have the power to get it going
Found some copper swarf in the fuel filter
Fuel is getting to the injectors and tested they are getting power.
Haven't been able to read the ECU as can't move the car, waiting for someone with PP to come over at the weekend to read the ECU.
It will fire when using easy start, but it won't keep going when the easy start has been used up.
I've tried both keys, just in case the immobiliser chip in the usual key stopped working.


Looking at the most likely culprit I've changed the low pressure fuel pump with a new part from GSF, but still in same boat, cranks but no fire.

Do you think the high pressure pump could have died just like that? Started and ran fine one day but not the next?

RE: Non starter - mspdan - 30-01-2014

any chance you can get a reader on it mate?

RE: Non starter - Toms306 - 30-01-2014

Wouldn't expect a HP pump to completely fail without warning tbh.

It could be various things tbh, probably best to wait and see what PP shows at the weekend.

RE: Non starter - tinysomniac - 30-01-2014

My dilemma is I can get a new HP pump and fit it by Saturday night, trouble is if I wait for the PP at weekend it will be next weekend before I can fix it, and I need the car for work next Wednesday Sad I'm at such a loss as what to do

RE: Non starter - mspdan - 30-01-2014

(30-01-2014, 09:50 PM)tinysomniac Wrote: My dilemma is I can get a new HP pump and fit it by Saturday night, trouble is if I wait for the PP at weekend it will be next weekend before I can fix it, and I need the car for work next Wednesday Sad I'm at such a loss as what to do

we have all been there, 10pm car fixes are for the win

RE: Non starter - Toms306 - 30-01-2014

Doesn't sound like a great situation tbh! Though I'd be surprised if it was the HP pump, much more likely to be electrical in my opinion.

If you have a multimeter you can test sensors and stuff, especially the FRPS/FPR which would be my guess, look for Poodle's thread for info on testing.

RE: Non starter - Poodle - 30-01-2014

Sounds like immobiliser issues, really need it on pp though. If you test the fuel rail pressure sensor with the multimeter you should see ~1.3v at cranking, that indicates enough pressure to fire. Thread is linked in my sig for more info.

RE: Non starter - tinysomniac - 30-01-2014

(30-01-2014, 09:56 PM)mspdan Wrote:
(30-01-2014, 09:50 PM)tinysomniac Wrote: My dilemma is I can get a new HP pump and fit it by Saturday night, trouble is if I wait for the PP at weekend it will be next weekend before I can fix it, and I need the car for work next Wednesday Sad I'm at such a loss as what to do

we have all been there, 10pm car fixes are for the win

Yep, normally i'm ok but Diesel cars confuse me lol

(30-01-2014, 09:58 PM)Toms306 Wrote: Doesn't sound like a great situation tbh! Though I'd be surprised if it was the HP pump, much more likely to be electrical in my opinion.

If you have a multimeter you can test sensors and stuff, especially the FRPS/FPR which would be my guess, look for Poodle's thread for info on testing.


(30-01-2014, 10:09 PM)Poodle Wrote: Sounds like immobiliser issues, really need it on pp though. If you test the fuel rail pressure sensor with the multimeter you should see ~1.3v at cranking, that indicates enough pressure to fire. Thread is linked in my sig for more info.

Will PP give me a fairly definitive answer?

Thank you for everyone's help so far.

RE: Non starter - Toms306 - 30-01-2014

It should do yeah...after all its what the dealer would use if you went there lol.

RE: Non starter - Ruan - 30-01-2014

Can you hear the lift pump priming?

Do you get any smoke from the exhaust at all whilst cranking?

RE: Non starter - tinysomniac - 30-01-2014

(30-01-2014, 11:27 PM)Ruan Wrote: Can you hear the lift pump priming?

Do you get any smoke from the exhaust at all whilst cranking?

Can hear the lift pump priming yes.

And yes, light coloured smoke when cranking.

RE: Non starter - Poodle - 31-01-2014

Oh ok, so looking more likely to be fuel pressure or cam/crank sync then.

RE: Non starter - Phil - 31-01-2014

(31-01-2014, 12:19 PM)Poodle Wrote: Oh ok, so looking more likely to be fuel pressure or cam/crank sync then.

Hi,

I'm tinysomniac's partner.

We got halfway through stripping the loom/cambelt covers off last night as the AA guy reckoned high pressure pump. But personally I can't see the car driving absolutely perfectly one minute, park up and then dead if it was a HP pump. Surely it would struggle to rev or lose power for a while first?

So we had a chat last night and decided to try and put the loom back on and get it firing so we can get a peugeot diagnostics on it.

One thing occured to me today - I took the crank sensor out and tested it with my multimeter - it reads 380ohms across the pins, theres no damage so I assume that's fine.
But I never tested the cam sensor - so I whipped that out just now and tried my multimeter across all combos of 2 pins (left+center, right+center, left+right etc..) and I get no reading from any, just a solid 1 on the multimeter.

Is that right? Or has the cam position sensor died?
The end of it looks a little scuffed too like the cam pulley has been catching it slightly

RE: Non starter - Poodle - 31-01-2014

I'm not great on electrics tbh, wouldn't know what to expect, Cully might know.

RE: Non starter - Phil - 01-02-2014

Running out of hope now

Bought a brand new camshaft position sensor and fitted it gapped to 1.2mm - no change
Went to the scrap yard and raided a C5 and a 307 - got 2 pressure sensors, and 2 crankshaft sensors - tried all of those, no change
Swapped the entire fuel filter housing for one from the C5 - no change

Tried a bleed test of the injectors (hard when it will only crank over) - but all 4 seem to bleed the same amount
Took the return hose off and put it in a 1.5l bottle and cranking the car over fills it pretty quickly so there's definitely fuel moving around

I get the feeling this car is going to end up being scrapped which is daft as it's a mint car otherwise
The only thing I've got left to try is another high pressure fuel pump - local scrap yard only want £48 for one so I think that will be next weeks job - if that doesn't work it must be some stupid electrical fault which I don't have the patience to find Sad

RE: Non starter - Poodle - 02-02-2014

Have you ever had cutting out problems? Did you get someone to look at it with pp? Where are you based?

RE: Non starter - Ruan - 02-02-2014

Need to get Peugeot planet on it, you could throw parts at it, but it may be as simple as the immo having a shit fit...

RE: Non starter - Phil - 02-02-2014

I'm 90% sure it's the immobiliser now

There's been no running problems at all until it just wouldn't start one day.
Were in Lincoln, I think I've found someone with planet so I'm gonna see if they'll come out and try to recode the immobiliser

RE: Non starter - Phil - 09-02-2014

Right. I forked out £85 for a PP2000 cable and software - managed to get it working and connecting to the car

However, it doesn't get a reply from the ECU.
If I do a global test the BSI has a permanent fault "No Reply. Engine management control unit"

I tried going through the procedure to re-learn all the keys and everything goes fine until the last step where it tries to save the changes and again it says no response from the ECU.

I'm guessing at this point it's either the ECU that's dead or a wiring fault.

Somewhere I found a guide that said to check if there's 5v at pin 1 and 29 on the ECU. I unplugged the ECU connector and checked for voltage and got nothing. BUT with the ECU unplugged there's no engine management light on the dash. As soon as I plug the ECU back in the engine management light comes on and you can hear other relays and pumps and things fire up. So it kinda suggest there is power getting to the ECU.

Could it still be an immobiliser fault? As far as I understand it the chip is read from the key by the transponder, code sent to the BSI and then the BSI relays that code to the ECU. So maybe the wire from the BSI to the ECU has broken or maybe the ECU's immobilser circuitry is fried?


I found an ecu and key set on ebay but it's got a code of 0281010249 and ours has a code of 0281010362 - does anyone know if that matters?

Thanks for any help - it's getting a bit frustrating now lol
Quote:Pins 33,49,51 and 53 should all be grounded, so check for continuity between these and battery negative. Pins 1, 29 and 69 should be 0v. with ignition off, battery voltage with ignition on. I was told a missing live on one of these pins was a likely cause of the problem - 2 were dead on mine! If only 1 is dead, it was suggested I borrow a live feed from one which was working. Pin 86 should be battery volts with ignition off, 0v. with ignition on. Pin 87 should be 0v. with ignition off, o-1v. for 2 secs when ignition is switched on, then battery voltage.
As I had several incorrect readings, it was suggested the relay next to the ECU could be faulty. This is the only other electrical item in the black plastic box holding the ECU. The connector can be removed by pulling out (sideways) the metal clip, using a screwdriver. The pins are numbered on the connector. Pins 3,8,11 and 15 should be permanent battery voltage (I got correct readings there!) When the relay is activated, I was told pins 1,2,5 and 9 should be live out from the relay. There must be some discrepancy there, as position 5 in the connector has no pin at all! The theory was to test for a relay fault by replacing it with copper link wires. I linked the permanently live pins to 1,2 and 9 and the engine fired once but no more. However, on removing the links and replacing the relay, the engine ran normally, and has started every time since. I can only presume that by pushing copper wires into the connector I have removed some corrosion from the relay connector. Information courtesy of Chris at TotalTuning, Pontypridd.

Right... so I've pulled the 15 pin multi-relay off and checked pins 3,8,11 and 15 - all have power from the battery.
But checking pins 1,29 and 69 on the ecu plug with the key in - only pin 69 has 12v - 1 & 29 are dead.

So I'm thinking this is starting to look like the brown multi-relay has packed up and isn't sending power to the ecu?

RE: Non starter - R1-Mini - 09-02-2014

Hi
I've not long fitted a Hdi to my Cabby
All was good until the cold weather and then it would not start
Done all the checks and got fuel at the injectors
Well i changed everything you could think of
Hp Pump, injectors, all sensors and switches and relays,ecu and immobilizer and bsi
Even changed the front car loom to hdi as thought it might be that was causing an issue it did get rid of all my error codes and made my fans work but did not help with the starting
Even took it to a Garage for the 1st time i started doing cars 27 years ago
Had everyone i asked stumped and no good
I thought it was temp related as it would start when over 10c but would struggle
Anything below that and no good
That was until i bought a new lift pump and all was good after that
What i put it down to was the fact diesel gets thicker with the cold and the lift pump was just lazy so just not enough pressure there
So it could well be the lift pump
Just a thought

RE: Non starter - Phil - 09-02-2014

Lift pump has been replaced with a brand new one - first thing we did

I'm 99.9% sure it's electrical now - missing voltage at pin 1 and 29 on the ecu means the ecu is getting no power.
Gonna order a replacement brown relay and see if that helps
Hrmmmm after some more google searching it turns out pin 1 & 29 will only get voltage if the ECU is plugged in, because the ECU turns the brown relay box on, which then sends voltage back to the ECU. Crazy.

So all I can think now is the ECU has packed up - the immobiliser must have died in it so it's not responding to the BSI or PP2000

RE: Non starter - Poodle - 09-02-2014

Iirc the immobiliser won't allow you to connect with pp2k if it's locked down, either way it's looking more like an ecu-based fault, as you say. The ecu doctor fixed mine when I had similar issues, fairly good turnaround time and commumication imo, which is what mattered at the time.

If you're changing the whole bsi, keyset etc, then ecu number doesn't matter, just make sure it's got the right number of plugs for your loom connection.

RE: Non starter - DeeTurbo - 09-02-2014

Phil, where are you guys? I've got a spare ECU and BSI you could borrow if you're near me.

RE: Non starter - Phil - 10-02-2014

Thanks mate - unfortunately we're in Lincoln.

We've found a company that can do a refurbed unlocked ECU for £130 - just waiting to see if they'll accept returns if it doesn't fix it, as £130 is a lot of dosh for something we don't need.


Here's the output from PP2000

ECU Ident seems to work
[Image: 306ecuident.png]

And it seems to show as unlocked
[Image: 306ecuoverview.png]

But if you look at the live data while cranking you get nothing
[Image: 306ecunoreadings.png]

Doing a global test reveals BSI faults and no connection to ECU
[Image: 306faultoverview.png]

When you check the BSI faults it also thinks there's no connection to the ECU
[Image: 306bsifault.png]

I've checked all the pins on the multi-relay and the ecu - no rust or corrosion at all and I can't see any damage to the loom

RE: Non starter - Poodle - 10-02-2014

That's looking pretty conclusive, only other thing to check based on that is the ecu-bsi wiring. Unfortunately you're pretty much at the point where you need to start buying parts to progress with the diagnosis.

RE: Non starter - Phil - 10-02-2014

Yeah I think so too - We've just ordered an unlocked ECU as I figure if it's unlocked even if the BSI->ECU wiring is knackered it should still run.

RE: Non starter - Ruan - 10-02-2014

Yeah, looks like a dead BSI... Is the ecu a 3 plug or single?! I think you said yours is a 362 which iirc is a single plug...

RE: Non starter - Phil - 11-02-2014

(10-02-2014, 01:57 PM)Ruan Wrote: Yeah, looks like a dead BSI... Is the ecu a 3 plug or single?! I think you said yours is a 362 which iirc is a single plug...

Yep '362' single plug.

RE: Non starter - Phil - 11-02-2014

Just wanted to follow this up for anyone who might find this in the future with the same issues.

We ordered an unlocked ECU from cartechelectronics.com - cost about £140 including next day UPS delivery. They got it in the post same day and it's just arrived.

We plugged it in and tried to start it - still wouldn't start and threw an error light. We figured it was probably cranking over too slow due to the battery being quite dead so jumped it off an Integra I've got on my driveway (don't ask lol) and it started up straight away

We've stopped and started it a few times now and it starts spot on every time.
So I assume either the ECU had died or the immobiliser part of the ECU had died and wasn't unlocking.

Either way very happy to have it running again Big Grin

RE: Non starter - Poodle - 11-02-2014

More nd more dead ecus turning up, interesting.... Thanks for taking the time to update, glad to hear it's running again.