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+--- Thread: Uprated Cams - BHP Gains? (/showthread.php?tid=20210)
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Uprated Cams - BHP Gains? - 9Freedman9 - 07-01-2014
I am thinking of getting some cams but I'm not too sure what to get. I don't want to spend loads of there isn't too much gain. Was thinking Newman as I can get some brand new for £250.
I have an air filter and an exhaust system. No other mods so was just wondering whether these were worth getting.
RE: Uprated Cams - BHP Gains? - underground375 - 07-01-2014
Well it will change the sound of the car, but I've never seen any print outs for the gains putting cams in! Be good to no tho.
RE: Uprated Cams - BHP Gains? - THE_Liam - 07-01-2014
Very few people bother with NA tuning these days due to the expense of it, cams and a remap would set you back £300+ easily, and the only cammed '6 I know of with cams, map, induction, exhaust and a port and polish dyno'ed at 193bhp for over a grand spent. You'd get a much bigger gain with forced induction, had a look at that?
RE: Uprated Cams - BHP Gains? - Midnightclub - 07-01-2014
Also worth bearing in mind, you can only go so aggressive before the pistons need modifying (or something of similar effect to make the clearances bigger).. Or you have to run the cams slightly retarded (kind of defeats the object)..
Then for the mapping, you've either got to go to wayne @ chipwizards for the stock ECU mapping or splash out on something standalone Omex etc.. then pay further for the mapping
RE: Uprated Cams - BHP Gains? - 9Freedman9 - 07-01-2014
So I take it for the money spent it's not really worth it? Forced induction? Enlighten me please!
RE: Uprated Cams - BHP Gains? - Midnightclub - 07-01-2014
Essentially, if you're looking for a decent level of power from a XU petrol engine, you're looking at about £3k+ depending on how much is DIY
RE: Uprated Cams - BHP Gains? - adamm306 - 07-01-2014
forced induction i.e turbo/supercharger
RE: Uprated Cams - BHP Gains? - Niall - 07-01-2014
(07-01-2014, 05:38 PM)Midnightclub Wrote: Essentially, if you're looking for a decent level of power from a XU petrol engine, you're looking at about £3k+ depending on how much is DIY
Less than that
As others have said though, NA tuning is not the way to go unless you have deep pockets.
RE: Uprated Cams - BHP Gains? - 9Freedman9 - 07-01-2014
Would love a supercharged 6 but for the money you'd spend you could probably buy a car or a 6 already done!
RE: Uprated Cams - BHP Gains? - Niall - 07-01-2014
(07-01-2014, 05:43 PM)9Freedman9 Wrote: Would love a supercharged 6 but for the money you'd spend you could probably buy a car or a 6 already done!
You can supercharge a 6 for £1500 if your careful with your spending. Doubt you would ever buy one already done for that price!
RE: Uprated Cams - BHP Gains? - 9Freedman9 - 07-01-2014
(07-01-2014, 05:46 PM)Niall Wrote:(07-01-2014, 05:43 PM)9Freedman9 Wrote: Would love a supercharged 6 but for the money you'd spend you could probably buy a car or a 6 already done!
You can supercharge a 6 for £1500 if your careful with your spending. Doubt you would ever buy one already done for that price!
I would be all over that! Is there more information somewhere?
RE: Uprated Cams - BHP Gains? - Niall - 07-01-2014
Its just a case of doing the research your self. Im doing it my self at the moment if you want to check out my project thread but mines cost more than £1500!
RE: Uprated Cams - BHP Gains? - 9Freedman9 - 07-01-2014
May have too look into that later on in the year! Would love to rain on my pals parade with his 2.5T petrol Mondeo!
RE: Uprated Cams - BHP Gains? - jammapic - 07-01-2014
I've spend about £1500 for 220hp, naturally aspirated... Don't think that's too bad really.
JP
RE: Uprated Cams - BHP Gains? - THE_Liam - 07-01-2014
My mate has supercharged his K10 Micra for a total of £220...
RE: Uprated Cams - BHP Gains? - Jonny81191 - 07-01-2014
Wasn't there a 290-odd bhp 205 with a '6 lump? Iirc there was about 15k in the build though
RE: Uprated Cams - BHP Gains? - Midnightclub - 07-01-2014
If I spent 15k on a GTi engine and only got 290hp.. i think i'd be quite upset lol.. I expect that evo powered 205 didn't cost much much more and thats like 500+hp iirc?
RE: Uprated Cams - BHP Gains? - Niall - 07-01-2014
(07-01-2014, 07:33 PM)Jonny81191 Wrote: Wasn't there a 290-odd bhp 205 with a '6 lump? Iirc there was about 15k in the build though
Yeah it's up for sale at the moment for 7k. Didn't realise that apparently it needs a rebuild every 1500 miles due to revving to 9500 lol
RE: Uprated Cams - BHP Gains? - jammapic - 07-01-2014
Yep, they do... and it's a fortune every time!
RE: Uprated Cams - BHP Gains? - miles - 07-01-2014
Not too bad for N/A, I run around 250bhp in mine, Cost I didn't add it up but around 3k in parts and keep it under 8500. Add labor into it thou are it soon adds up
RE: Uprated Cams - BHP Gains? - chrisrallye - 07-01-2014
The 205 does not a rebuild very 1.5k as i have the same engine and i know he has done about 10k on that engine and it running fine. What sort of budget u got for the build?
RE: Uprated Cams - BHP Gains? - Niall - 07-01-2014
Labour is the biggest killer IMO. If your handy with a spanner and a drill, you will probably save your self the best park of 1k in labour on a custom build. If you go for a bolt on kit like a lynx one, i can't imagine labour to be too bad.
RE: Uprated Cams - BHP Gains? - BigTallPaul - 08-01-2014
If you change the cams you essentially lift open the valves higher (lower) and/or for longer. Without changing the Ecu map you won't gain 10bhp. I know because I've done it.
You can have a real faff setting up the correct cam timing (may need verniers at £200!) and you always have the very very tight clearances between valve and piston to consider.
You are better off thinking about handling and braking or (if you must have more power) find a 406 coupe V6 manual, buy it and then spend 100+ hours making the engine/box/clutch/ecu/cooling system etc fit your 306.
Once complete you'll have more torque at 1650pm than a '6 generates anywhere in the rpm range.
oh and it will sound AWESOME! :-)
RE: Uprated Cams - BHP Gains? - adamm306 - 08-01-2014
And it'll handle like shite
Re: RE: Uprated Cams - BHP Gains? - THE_Liam - 08-01-2014
(08-01-2014, 12:44 AM)adamm306 Wrote: And it'll handle like shite
Why? The V6 engine is only about 15kg heavier, doesn't make much difference apparently.
RE: Uprated Cams - BHP Gains? - powerandtorque - 08-01-2014
I'm sure the V6 engine and ML gearbox combination is rather more than 15kg over and above a GTi-6 and BE (Peugeot's own figures suggest 50kg+ IIRC) and more to the point, the weight moves forward of the front axle given that the V6 sits upright and the GTi-6 is leaned back.
"Sh**e" might be a bit strong, but that's bound to have a very noticeable impact - it certainly does in a 205.
RE: Uprated Cams - BHP Gains? - BigTallPaul - 08-01-2014
Its always amazing that when someone wants genuine help some people offer comments which are either not helpful or are just plain wrong!
Fact 1 - 406 D8 V6 engine/box/ecu/radiator/twin fan setup/clutch and beefier driveshafts weigh exactly 60kg more than a std 306Gti6 lump. Like-for-like.
Fact 2 - Handling is about chassis rigidity, geometry and suspension setup. Remember: A Ferrari 599 weighs 30% more than my 1100kg 306V6. But they handle well, don't they?
Fact 3 - Torque is what turns wheels not power. My V6 produces 200ft lb of torque at 4200rpm. Thats far more useful than 150/160ft lb at 5500rpm. Also the spread of torque is much better with at least 170ft lb from under 2000rpm.
Someone said many years ago "There is no substitute for capacity". They are still correct today.
A talented diyer can V6 their own car for just £1000. Fact 4.
RE: Uprated Cams - BHP Gains? - Niall - 08-01-2014
(08-01-2014, 07:34 PM)BigTallPaul Wrote: Fact 2 - Handling is about chassis rigidity, geometry and suspension setup. Remember: A Ferrari 599 weighs 30% more than my 1100kg 306V6. But they handle well, don't they?
The thing you haven't taken into account though is the position of that weight. The XU engine sits at a 30 ( i think) degree angle shifting the weight back towards the middle of the car. The V6 when fitted to the 306 sits upright meaning the weight is all sitting right over the front. This does make a fairly big difference to the handling of a car!
RE: Uprated Cams - BHP Gains? - BigTallPaul - 08-01-2014
So you can tell when driving that your fuel tank is nearly full or nearly empty?
And notice the difference when you remove a 17kg spare wheel?
Do you spiral out of control when a 60kg passenger joins you?
I doubt it.
Simply moving your 12kg car battery from front to rear effectively shifts 24kg.
Trust me, theres no way an average driver can tell.
I run 500lb/in front springs and 330lb/in rear beam so maybe its less noticeable because if this too.
Paul
RE: Uprated Cams - BHP Gains? - adamm306 - 08-01-2014
+1 its not the weight thats the issue its the way the v6 would sit compared to a XU just look at how a XUD sits and that weighs a tonne still handles great though
edit: and you can feel a MASSIVE difference compared to a full tank and empty tank