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+--- Thread: Whats needed for 200bhp ? (/showthread.php?tid=1573)
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Whats needed for 200bhp ? - Midnightclub - 15-02-2012
I've been thinking for a while about getting a new car or toying with the idea of going stage 3 in mine.. practically wise i need to have my car on the road all the time because its good on fuel but emma should be driving soon and i can drive her car to work whilst mines off the road so i could work on it..
So.. What bits will i need and what clutch will take the power? Roughly the cost..
Thanks guys
Whats needed for 200bhp ? - MarkTD - 15-02-2012
What engine you got?
Re: Whats needed for 200bhp ? - THE_Liam - 15-02-2012
MarkTD Wrote:What engine you got?
Umm... This is the DW10 HDI section dude...
Whats needed for 200bhp ? - MarkTD - 15-02-2012
THE_Liam Wrote:MarkTD Wrote:What engine you got?
Umm... This is the DW10 HDI section dude...
Oops lol I didn't see what section it is, tapatalk been messing up on me and not showing things clearly.
Re: Whats needed for 200bhp ? - Pompey306mark - 15-02-2012
Dont you need a CG paddle clutch.
Plus I think you need more fuel and bigger turbo?
Re: Whats needed for 200bhp ? - Pompey306mark - 15-02-2012
Yes it's possible - a mate runs 230Bhp and 450Nm.
What you need:
BMW330D pump
BMW120d turbocharger
a 3bar mapsensor
Mercedes AMG injectors (I don't have the exact model here)
A good intercooler
custom piping to the intercooler
3" downpipe and a better flowing exhaust.
Re: Whats needed for 200bhp ? - Chris - 15-02-2012
My Iveco turbo may be for sale soon, bolt that on with a R70 (either bmw or 2.2hdi) and a 1800 bar sensor should see you 190 with the right map.
FYI the AMG tips are a PITA to map properly. and the spray angel is still off so dones't do the engines any favors apparantly.
Re: Whats needed for 200bhp ? - THE_Liam - 15-02-2012
Pompey306mark Wrote:Yes it's possible - a mate runs 230Bhp and 450Nm.
What you need:
BMW330D pump
BMW120d turbocharger
a 3bar mapsensor
Mercedes AMG injectors (I don't have the exact model here)
A good intercooler
custom piping to the intercooler
3" downpipe and a better flowing exhaust.
Is that all? No forged rods?
Re: Whats needed for 200bhp ? - Chris - 15-02-2012
Nope the hdi stuff is good for like 220ish is what Lars said a while back IIRC.
Whats needed for 200bhp ? - Jonny b - 15-02-2012
A petrol with a turbo ha ha
Re: Whats needed for 200bhp ? - THE_Liam - 15-02-2012
Jonny b Wrote:A petrol with a turbo ha ha
True, a quick map and mine has 220 bhp
But seriously, I'm surprised at how strong HDI internals are, I can see what Darren's thinking now...
Re: Whats needed for 200bhp ? - 4WayDiablo - 15-02-2012
You would have thought after many years on the pug forums you would have a good idea by now lol
Re: Whats needed for 200bhp ? - Poodle - 16-02-2012
There's lots of different routes, but the essentials are as follows:
A good turbo, 1800 bar rail sensor, 3 bar map sensor (not necessary but advised), decent fmic, 2.5" exhaust with little/no restrictions, r70 pump or bigger, very competent mapper (read - tb205 lol).
R70 pumps can be pushed to 200bhp, but i'm not sure how reliable they'd be. If you're going to stick with an r70 don't get the BMW pump, there's a different one you can use without having to modify it to fit. As mentioned above, AMG tips aren't all they were made out to be, require a lot of work (and obviously cost) for little gain and could ruin the engine if set up wrong.
Clutch: Lots of people have had big issues with CG HDi clutches, helix or sachs paddles are well proven.
Cost: Depends how well you want to do it and how you source your parts, but i'd hazard a guess around £3k by the time you're finished.
Don't know if you've considered this, but 180 can be had with not much extra work over a stage 2, however breaking 200 seems to be rather expensive...
Re: Whats needed for 200bhp ? - Foxy-jim - 16-02-2012
Read through Darren's stuff for ideas!
Re: Whats needed for 200bhp ? - Poodle - 16-02-2012
Don't take this the wrong way foxy-jim, but Darren's thread is almost completely irrelevant to HDi's.
Re: Whats needed for 200bhp ? - Foxy-jim - 16-02-2012
Ye I know it's dturbos etc, but are there not some aspects that would be similar?
Whats needed for 200bhp ? - Matt - 16-02-2012
You need a turbo the same size as your head
Re: Whats needed for 200bhp ? - mark_airey - 16-02-2012
Foxy-jim Wrote:Ye I know it's dturbos etc, but are there not some aspects that would be similar?
Not really no, such as what?
Re: Whats needed for 200bhp ? - Midnightclub - 16-02-2012
The main things I'm thinking about is the type of clutch I need and which turbo will be best as I don't want loads of lag but I know vnt can be a bitch to map. I've heard a few times that a gt2052s would be perfect for the flow etc. That I'd need. What other pumps are about if the r70 isn't really up to the job then? I've heard that the amg tips are a bit pointless and a pita to map but I'm not sure of any other injectors or tips that share the same spray angle
Re: Whats needed for 200bhp ? - Foxy-jim - 16-02-2012
I don't do diesels...it was just an idea!
Re: Whats needed for 200bhp ? - Poodle - 16-02-2012
The electronic side of it completely changes how you tune the engine matey, same as mpfi vs carbs.
I've heard lots of people say the gt20's are a great size for the HDi, but don't remember finding anyone who has actually fitted one....
To get beyond r70 you're looking at creating the HDi equivalent of one of Darren's frankenpumps - drilling fuel-ways, swapping out parts from r85 pumps, fabricating mounts etc. The only person i know of to be messing with these pumps is tb205, so probably best asking him.
As you say, there's very few injectors that come close to the HDi spray angle and pattern, and finding information on them is even harder. I understand some of the JTd injectors aren't far off, but couldn't tell you which.
I've been collecting info for a couple of years now, so feel free to drop me a pm if you want to go through what i've got, if you've got skype that'd be easiest.
Re: Whats needed for 200bhp ? - Midnightclub - 16-02-2012
Cheers for the info buddy, i know that Tom1357 has a GT2052s but i don't think he's been able to use all of the power due to his clutch slipping at the moment, supposed to be good though and don't think it has much lag.
I think my best bet would be to speak to TB as you say he knows his shit when it comes to HDi engine tuning, is he actually on here yet?
Re: Whats needed for 200bhp ? - Ruan - 16-02-2012
My turbo is a GT2052V - so just a VNT version of Tom's turbo... Less laggy than a T2, probably about the same as a GT15 and more power than a T25...
Be pretty similar on a HDi...
Re: Whats needed for 200bhp ? - Poodle - 16-02-2012
No problem
Ah fair play, haven't been keeping up with the projects recently, must check that out when i get a mo.Yeah probably, don't know if he's on here yet.
Ruan has a point, if you're going to TB anyway he can map for VNT's, so may as well...
Re: Whats needed for 200bhp ? - Ruan - 16-02-2012
Meh, as I've found, you don't necessarily need it to be controlled by the ECU... The algorithms that it runs on are surprisingly simple and are easy enough to replicate yourself on a controller... Even just with boost control, they're not bad at all, mine STILL runs on boost control today and it's fine... You can make it work how you want then...
I'll get all the anals in here in a moment telling me how that's so wrong, but frankly, go drive my car, you'll see what I mean...
Re: Whats needed for 200bhp ? - Dum-Dum - 16-02-2012
All you need is an R70 pump (or bigger) and a bigger turbo. GT20, K03S or similar.
TB205 has recently been mapping over 200bhp on standard injectors.
As for clutches Id go for a Helix.
Re: Whats needed for 200bhp ? - Dum-Dum - 16-02-2012
Oh but prepare to get good at changing gearboxes if you drive it properly as it is perfectly possible to strip the teeth off 5th after 10-20k
Re: Whats needed for 200bhp ? - Ruan - 16-02-2012
I'm not sure how "Standard" those injectors are - there's some mod you can do to stock nozzles to give them double the lift IIRC...
And to fix not pulling the teeth off 5th, just don't give it FULL load high torque in 5th... I just have to refrain from it or I'll light up the clutch or start hammering the gearbox, I've had it pop out of 4th at full load before now..
Re: Whats needed for 200bhp ? - Chris - 16-02-2012
As for the clutch, a DT setup with the same CG paddle and uprated pressure plate that JP's running (at 320 torques) should be fine.
TB is running a R70 with his VNT and making 200bhp, but its not far off its limit.
IMO, a bigger normal turbo, so a GT20 or Iveco k03, along with the R70, and 1800 rail sensor should see you 190, maybe even closer to 200 with an aggressive map.
Re: Whats needed for 200bhp ? - Ruan - 16-02-2012
Remember - Bryn made 200 on his GTB2056V and that should have had loads to go...
Also - GT20 means nothing, you can get a GT2049 if you want... You can also get a GT2059 and a GT2060 if you wang on a mahoosive compressor... GT20 = frame/turbine... last two numbers = compressor exducer in mm...
So mine - GT2052V - GT20 frame and series turbine wheel, 52mm GT series compressor, and V = VNT...
Or say - GT4086KLV - GT40 frame and series turbine, 86mm Compressor, K = Electronic Actuator, L = Water Cooled Cartridge, V = VNT..
The ending letters mean lots of things too, loads more, but can't remember them all...
K = Electronic Actuator
V = Variable Nozzle
S = Wastegated/Another Variant of the turbo series
R = Ball Bearing
L = Water Cooled Centre Cartridge