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+--- Thread: Project XU7JP4...ADVICE PLEASE! (/showthread.php?tid=15366)
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Project XU7JP4...ADVICE PLEASE! - RoloGTI - 09-07-2013
Hello,
Hi, I've got a few ideas, but first I would like to validate them with you, hope you could guide me.
Engine: XU7JP4 (1.8 16V, Xsara VTS 1.8 16V 1999)
I'm thinkig in the idea of intsalling the VTS 2.0 (XU10J4RS) Intake manifold (TB, Inj, Fuel rail, fuel regulator), cams, adn exhaust manifold.
I had read a lot, and thats were that idea is born...anyway I'm still with some questions, hope someone could helpme.
Questions:
1) All its really plug&play or more like plug&pray (like some kits that are sold arround the world)?
2) Do I need to make any mod to the ECU?, would it run good and acomplish the gases without any ECU or map change?
3) If I need the ECU (Chip) were I can get it (I'm not from UK)? (I know that this car is not OBDII eeprom writable)
4) In the case that I install a test pipe...or in simple words I take the cat...how many whp I could expect?
5) I don´t think so, but this changes could cause any damage or wear out of the normal to the engine (its my daily and the idea is that it should take me every were every day)?
6) Any advice? its a good idea to do this?
Please feel fre to let me know what you think, all tips, ideas are welcome...the idea is to not spend more money that that.
In advance, thank you very much for your help.
Rolo
RE: Project XU7JP4...ADVICE PLEASE! - RoloGTI - 09-07-2013
Any one?
I'm at 1 click to buy everything....is worth it?
RE: Project XU7JP4...ADVICE PLEASE! - Poodle - 09-07-2013
The 1.8 16v is over square and hence revvy by nature, i think individual throttle bodies or a turbo would be better. But that's mainly because ITBs and turbos are win, i don't actually know much about petrols. Give it some time, more than a couple of hours lol, someone with a better idea will be along.
RE: Project XU7JP4...ADVICE PLEASE! - RoloGTI - 09-07-2013
(09-07-2013, 09:25 PM)Poodle Wrote: The 1.8 16v is over square and hence revvy by nature, i think individual throttle bodies or a turbo would be better. But that's mainly because ITBs and turbos are win, i don't actually know much about petrols. Give it some time, more than a couple of hours lol, someone with a better idea will be along.
Thanks, in fact this modification would be quite interesting.
Yet I want this car for daily use, in fact bought it for that. The turbo car I have is pretty useless
... and I would like that this was just the opposite lol
RE: Project XU7JP4...ADVICE PLEASE! - Grant - 09-07-2013
It really depends what you expect to gain from it mate.
1) Just fit your manifolds and off you go. No mapping needed. Just use your 1.8 fuel rail, injectors and fuel pressure regulator on the 2.0 inlet manifold and off you go.
2) As above, no ECU modding needed. As to emissions. I very much doubt that the car will pass emission tests with both the XU10 manifolds fitted, but this is a hunch, I have no evidence to support this. Mine ran rich as f*ck with them on.
3) N/A
4) I dont fully understand your question. Are you enquiring about a de-cat?
5) Whilst fitting the manifolds themselves will not cause any direct damage, you could expect to see some bore wash from overfuelling should it occur, and valve seating problems from the pulse timing of the engine being knocked out. The latter is arguably no worse than fitting an aftermarket exhaust. For what its worth, I never worried too much about the pulse timing. If at all
6) I love the mods on mine, really frees up the engine and helps it breathe better. The engine already loves to rev, and this just helps it do that more. But as stated above, be wary of the fuelling related issues it could incur.
RE: Project XU7JP4...ADVICE PLEASE! - RoloGTI - 09-07-2013
Thanks!!!!!.....and about the cams?....plug&play?...worth it?
Washing the cyl....but if I keep the stock inj and fuel regulator...how it could put more fuel inside?...the pulsewith of the inj would be the same (I think)
Yes..I was talking about cat elimination
Thanks for your answer!!!
RE: Project XU7JP4...ADVICE PLEASE! - Grant - 09-07-2013
Didn't see you put cams. They will require a remap if you install these. There was a chap on here (maybe someone could point him out i think his name was astor_xs or something) who used an XU10 head on an XU7 bottom end on standard XU10 management. It ran, but very rich I think. IIRC he used this as a temporary thing before getting it mapped properly.
Yes, the XU7 injectors and rail will be fitted, thus retaining the 1.8 bar of pressure, but the management will inject more fuel, as there is more air going into the cylinders. Combine this with bigger flow from the exhaust and decat, you get where I am going right?
RE: Project XU7JP4...ADVICE PLEASE! - RoloGTI - 09-07-2013
Yes...got it....it could be solved with a fpr..maybe...1.8 bar pressure?..low...
Yes the cams was my concern..they are much more agressive......a guy is asking me 40 punds for the cams ar ebay....worth them?
I don"t have any sence of if it is high price or low price....
Thanks Grant!!!
RE: Project XU7JP4...ADVICE PLEASE! - Grant - 09-07-2013
No worries
TBH i dont know what the cams should go for, I've never really been in the market for them. A quick look around ebay shows that they go for circa £20 each, so perhaps don't jump at them and do a bit more research. On the face of it, they dont seem too competatively priced.
The FPR will control the Fuel pressure. The XU7 will run rough and be harder to start on an XU10 FPR. What I was getting at previously is the management will inject more fuel with the manifolds on, not through the pressure of the fuel supplied, but via the injection cycle. I.e inject for longer.
RE: Project XU7JP4...ADVICE PLEASE! - RoloGTI - 09-07-2013
This guy is making me a package for all..330 shipped....
Yes..I understand...now..this is another way to looking at...it could get lean....more air, higher duty cycle...and maybe at WOT and high rpm (red line is at 6100..for now)...it could reach over the 80% of the duty cycle of the inj because they are smaller... on turbo engines, over 80% could not be so good...in NA engines is the same??
Sorry if I ask too much...im new on this...
Thanks Grant!!!!
RE: Project XU7JP4...ADVICE PLEASE! - Grant - 09-07-2013
Ask away mate, its what the forum is here for!
£330? If so that is very expensive! Where is shipping? I would expect to pay half of that to be honest!
You will have to excuse me but I don't fully understand the question regarding fuelling. Are you asking if the duty cycle of injection is the same on turbo engines compared to NA engines?
RE: Project XU7JP4...ADVICE PLEASE! - RoloGTI - 09-07-2013
Thanks!!!
The shipping is to Chile.....
Im getting into an office meeting..I will try to explain it later...
Do you think 330 is too much?
RE: Project XU7JP4...ADVICE PLEASE! - Grant - 09-07-2013
Is it 330 GBP? What currency are we talking about?
Here is a link that can help you calculate the duty cycle clicky
RE: Project XU7JP4...ADVICE PLEASE! - Niall - 09-07-2013
(09-07-2013, 09:25 PM)Poodle Wrote: The 1.8 16v is over square and hence revvy by nature, i think individual throttle bodies or a turbo would be better. But that's mainly because ITBs and turbos are win, i don't actually know much about petrols. Give it some time, more than a couple of hours lol, someone with a better idea will be along.
actually its just square. 83x83
Correct though. Still very revvy.
RE: Project XU7JP4...ADVICE PLEASE! - RoloGTI - 10-07-2013
Yes 330 GBP for all I mention at the begining...
RE: Project XU7JP4...ADVICE PLEASE! - Grant - 10-07-2013
That is a lot of money for those parts. How much of that price comprises of shipping?
If I was to go down a scrapyard and buy the parts I would expect to pay nothing more than £150. Even that isn't too cheap. But then again my scrappy are daylight robbers!
RE: Project XU7JP4...ADVICE PLEASE! - Poodle - 10-07-2013
(09-07-2013, 10:56 PM)Niall Wrote: actually its just square. 83x83
I thought it was 83 x 81.something, my bad.
RE: Project XU7JP4...ADVICE PLEASE! - Niall - 10-07-2013
Don't forget grant, in other countries where the 306 may not be so common, parts will probably fetch more of a premium.
RE: Project XU7JP4...ADVICE PLEASE! - Grant - 10-07-2013
Even still, purchasing from England and add shipping. Cant be that much surely?
Edit. Just seen the price of shipping a suitcase to Chile. £310 :O
RE: Project XU7JP4...ADVICE PLEASE! - Poodle - 10-07-2013
Just checked it out, definitely 83mm bore by 81.4mm stroke, thought you were meant to be an expert on these dude. :p
And faaaaarrrkk at the cost of shipping!
RE: Project XU7JP4...ADVICE PLEASE! - Matt - 10-07-2013
Cost of shipping is crazy! Surely cheaper to go pick up a whole engine?
RE: Project XU7JP4...ADVICE PLEASE! - Ruan - 10-07-2013
Undersquare anyway
Oversquare would a long stroke motor If it were me I'd fit the cylinder head off a gti6 and use gti6 management, its going to work the best out of any of the combos imo... Then you can use all the parts, and use the gti6 ecu which more people know how to remap...
RE: Project XU7JP4...ADVICE PLEASE! - RoloGTI - 10-07-2013
The 306 here is very very common, but in engines 1.4, 1.6 and some 1.8...all 8v...the 106 also very common, engines 1.1, 1.4 and some 1.6..all 8 valves...the S16..just abiut 2 or 3...
The GTI6 never arrived, the xsara VTS 2.0 about 25....
Peuguetos and citroen, doesnt import high end small cars..because here the compite and lose against all the offer of VAG (wich cost almost the same price and much more power equipment, etc).
My country is at the end of the world, shipping is always high (exept for those chinesse and hk guys that deluver free to all the world)..
In terms of price, of new parts, for example a new water pump for the 1.8 16v is about 15 gbp, the time belt kit (tensioner and belt) 90 gbp....
Right now Im arriving to my office....late...talk to you later...and thanks for the welcome...all of you are very kind
RE: Project XU7JP4...ADVICE PLEASE! - Grant - 10-07-2013
(10-07-2013, 03:28 PM)RoloGTI Wrote: talk to you later...and thanks for the welcome...all of you are very kind
Awww
RE: Project XU7JP4...ADVICE PLEASE! - RoloGTI - 10-07-2013
Hahahahahha....this is not my native language....some times put me in trouble like this time....hahaha
RE: Project XU7JP4...ADVICE PLEASE! - C.A.R. - 10-07-2013
Have owned 2 different 1.8s in different states of tune...
First one I had I added gti6 exhaust and intake and a decat, went well but ultimately realised it was over fuelling and this blocked the exhaust up and somehow blew the piston rings so it started drinking oil.
Next one had the manifolds and cams. This was better but the engine didn't really start to 'come on cam' until about 600rpm before the limiter, so it was largely pointless.
I think if you're going to do anything beyond the gti6 exhaust manifold and exhaust which helps it breathe, you're going to need different management. And if I was going down that route I would do as Ruan suggested and just put the already better-flowing gti6 head straight on the alloy block.
RE: Project XU7JP4...ADVICE PLEASE! - RoloGTI - 10-07-2013
I think maybe that put me out of budget.
That would be, the head + both manifolds + ECU....If I consider that both manifolds + cams + TB + Fuel rail + FPR + MAP cost me 330 GBP shipped...the head I think would duplicate the costs....not to mention the ECU that I think it isn´t cheap.....or I'm wrong?
RE: Project XU7JP4...ADVICE PLEASE! - C.A.R. - 10-07-2013
If I had another, I'd stick with the standard inlet manifold. It confuses the Ecu too much when you start to change the inlet side of things. Also, the later 1.8s in the uk market had a strange air cleaner thing on the inlet and 2 lambda sensors. When I fitted these modifications to the Engine with 2 lambda sensors I was getting constant EML's which I had to turn off all the time.
IMO you either go all-out and get the engine mapped (new Ecu) or just stick to basic bolt-ons. Anywhere in-between will upset the management and ultimately give you an unhappy engine.
RE: Project XU7JP4...ADVICE PLEASE! - RoloGTI - 10-07-2013
Seems that the most rasonable options are:
1) Engine swap to a XU10J4RS (with its ECU)
2) Just install the exhaust mani of the XU10J4RS and put a low restrictive air filter
Now...point #2...worth it?
Just talked to a friend that remap ECU and he is the representative of Upsolut, Revo, etc....told me that the sagem ECU its a pain....he don't want to put his hands in it...so also...no ECU mod...
RE: Project XU7JP4...ADVICE PLEASE! - C.A.R. - 11-07-2013
Yep the Sagem unit can't be modified as far as I'm aware.
Engine swaps start to make sense when you consider what needs to be done to get the 1.8 properly sorted.