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The debate thread - Niall - 28-03-2013
Saw this on another forum i use and it gets rather interesting. We're all intelligent people really right? And seeing as people dont like to hide their opinion when they are behind a keyboard, it normally makes for interesting reading.
So, every week there will be a new topic to debate. Usually something recent in the news. No doubt some will get a bit heated but no getting offensive just because your opinion isnt the same as someone elses.
So lets see how well this works on here with a supposed bunch of very intelligent car nutters
This weeks topic: Should regular smokers have to pay more national insurance to cover there medical bills if they end up using the NHS due to a smoking related illness?
The debate thread - Jonny b - 28-03-2013
Ill start then
In a word no! If everyone stopped smoking imagine the tax loss!
Knowing our gov they would just increase taxs to compensate!
RE: The debate thread - Dum-Dum - 28-03-2013
No, the average smoker already pays more in fag tax over their life than the cost to cover their care on the NHS
RE: The debate thread - cwspellowe - 28-03-2013
Agreed with Jonny. Smokers pay a hell of a lot of tax, which is why smoking will never be banned. Ridiculous amount of revenue is made by HMRC on smokes, don't think it would be fair for smokers to pay even more NI too.
Saying that, you could argue that smokers will be more of a liability and a strain on the NHS.
I can see valid points from both sides, but if they should charge smokers more NI, they should charge drug addicts, alcoholics, anyone with any kind of dependency more too. Then you could start looking at genetic disorders or high risk groups, surely they should be charged more too? Where does it stop?
RE: The debate thread - Niall - 28-03-2013
Thing is though how much of it goes towards the NHS? Granted tobacco is a big earner for the government but what does it go towards? Like road tax, that doesnt go on roads. It all just goes into the pot. And then, although its very rare, what about the non smokers that end up with illnesses from second hand smoke?
RE: The debate thread - Matt - 28-03-2013
No because I like smoking too much
Plus as dum said we already pay a lot of tax of cigarettes!
RE: The debate thread - Niall - 28-03-2013
Pellowe, Genetic disorders are not your fault. If your born diabetic or with kidney failure, that isnt your fault. Smoking however is a option. Your choosing to do that to your body.
RE: The debate thread - Curt - 28-03-2013
(28-03-2013, 08:29 PM)cwspellowe Wrote: Then you could start looking at genetic disorders or high risk groups, surely they should be charged more too? Where does it stop?
The difference is, smoking is always a choice people make... yes it's a hard habit to kick, but the choice was made at some point.
RE: The debate thread - cwspellowe - 28-03-2013
(28-03-2013, 08:31 PM)Curt Wrote:(28-03-2013, 08:29 PM)cwspellowe Wrote: Then you could start looking at genetic disorders or high risk groups, surely they should be charged more too? Where does it stop?
The difference is, smoking is always a choice people make... yes it's a hard habit to kick, but the choice was made at some point.
It's also a choice to get pregnant at 14 years old. It's a choice to drink yourself into a coma. It's a choice to participate in high risk dangerous activities. It's a choice to join the army when there's every chance you could have your limbs detached.
RE: The debate thread - Curt - 28-03-2013
Yes, but non of that is the point I was making or the part I quoted
. Indeed, the same could be said for drinkers etc
The debate thread - Jonny b - 28-03-2013
So if you do trackdays or snowboarding, boxing, or work with animals! All things you choose to do should you not pay extra then because you are more likely to be in hospital more often than a chess player
RE: The debate thread - cwspellowe - 28-03-2013
(28-03-2013, 08:35 PM)Jonny b Wrote: So if you do trackdays or snowboarding, boxing, or work with animals! All things you choose to do should you not pay extra then because you are more likely to be in hospital more often than a chess player
Exactly.
And regardless of whether or not you choose to do something, if you're a higher risk you should pay more. Look at car insurance, I don't choose to be 26 but i pay higher insurance than my dad. I didn't choose to have a lower NCB.
I'm not arguing that the above SHOULD happen, i'm just saying if there's a higher dependency/risk, surely you should pay more? Genetic, sexually transmitted, accident, whatever.
RE: The debate thread - Niall - 28-03-2013
(28-03-2013, 08:35 PM)Jonny b Wrote: So if you do trackdays or snowboarding, boxing, or work with animals! All things you choose to do should you not pay extra then because you are more likely to be in hospital more often than a chess player
Thing is though Jonny, those things you dont do every day. Yes you could break a leg snowboarding on holiday but whats the likelihood in comparison with ending up ill because you are smoking 10 a day every day for 30 years?
(28-03-2013, 08:40 PM)cwspellowe Wrote:(28-03-2013, 08:35 PM)Jonny b Wrote: So if you do trackdays or snowboarding, boxing, or work with animals! All things you choose to do should you not pay extra then because you are more likely to be in hospital more often than a chess player
Exactly.
And regardless of whether or not you choose to do something, if you're a higher risk you should pay more. Look at car insurance, I don't choose to be 26 but i pay higher insurance than my dad. I didn't choose to have a lower NCB.
I'm not arguing that the above SHOULD happen, i'm just saying if there's a higher dependency/risk, surely you should pay more? Genetic, sexually transmitted, accident, whatever.
Problem with raising NI due to genetic issues is that can the person afford the rise in NI? And then in that respect, its no longer a free health service. With smoking, if you decide to take up smoking, you should ensure you can afford the rise in NI. If you complain you cant afford to live because of the rise, you shouldnt be smoking anyway!
RE: The debate thread - Dum-Dum - 28-03-2013
Its not a free health service anyway.
I have to pay for prescriptions, parking and dental
RE: The debate thread - cwspellowe - 28-03-2013
(28-03-2013, 08:47 PM)Dum-Dum Wrote: Its not a free health service anyway.
I have to pay for prescriptions, parking and dental
Er, i get dental. You just need a better job.
RE: The debate thread - Niall - 28-03-2013
(28-03-2013, 08:49 PM)cwspellowe Wrote:(28-03-2013, 08:47 PM)Dum-Dum Wrote: Its not a free health service anyway.
I have to pay for prescriptions, parking and dental
Er, i get dental. You just need a better job.
this.
You dont pay for treatment though Dumdum unlike most countries.
The debate thread - Jonny b - 28-03-2013
When I boxed I used the hospital a lot more than I do now! A lot of people that I know that are into various activities are In there a lot more than Iam!
Yes I smoke but I pay my dues! Why shouldn't I get treated after paying yet all the nhs tourists that ain't paid shit get treated!
I have probably been docs 3 times in ten years so I think I have enough in the bank
RE: The debate thread - Dum-Dum - 28-03-2013
(28-03-2013, 08:49 PM)cwspellowe Wrote:(28-03-2013, 08:47 PM)Dum-Dum Wrote: Its not a free health service anyway.
I have to pay for prescriptions, parking and dental
Er, i get dental. You just need a better job.
And you get prescriptions as well git. I think that should also apply to Scotts that live in England too, It angers me so much that I can be really ill, go to the doctors and then have to pay the best part of a tenner to get well whereas those on benefits can go in to the doctors and get a 19p pack of paracetamol prescribed for free.
(28-03-2013, 08:49 PM)Niall Wrote:(28-03-2013, 08:49 PM)cwspellowe Wrote:(28-03-2013, 08:47 PM)Dum-Dum Wrote: Its not a free health service anyway.
I have to pay for prescriptions, parking and dental
Er, i get dental. You just need a better job.
this.
You dont pay for treatment though Dumdum unlike most countries.
Its crap that you have to pay at all, makes me angry especially if its not your fault you need prescription drugs.
RE: The debate thread - Curt - 28-03-2013
Niall pretty much made the point I was making, you shouldn't get penalised because of something you can't help... It can't be put together with smoking and drinking
RE: The debate thread - Niall - 28-03-2013
Dum Dum, regardless of if the NHS isn't completely free in that respect, if you dont smoke, you should just pay your standard rate of NI. If you have been smoking since you were 12 and now need a replacement lung, do you think thats fair that we should all pay for that even when there are loads of cuts at the moment? Im not saying that you should be billed all of it because most could never afford the entire operation costs and seeing as you still pay the basic rate of NI, they couldnt just deny you the op and you die.
The debate thread - Jonny b - 28-03-2013
But what if you need a replacement lung and you hadn't been docs or hospital in 20 years?
RE: The debate thread - Dum-Dum - 28-03-2013
(28-03-2013, 09:18 PM)Niall Wrote: If you have been smoking since you were 12 and now need a replacement lung, do you think thats fair that we should all pay for that even when there are loads of cuts at the moment?I don't think its fair we all pay for other peoples smoking but as above the average smoker more than pays for their treatment for fag related illnesses over their life in the tax they pay on fags. I think its the same for booze as well.
The problem is where do you stop, I know they are talking about a fast food tax so that all the obese people pay for their treatment but its only gonna peanalise sensible people. Lets face it a grilled chicken kebab with salad aint unhealthy now.
But if they do that are we gonna tax motorcyclists more cos they are more likely to get hurt on the roads than car drivers?
Are we gonna tax people who buy bikes, skateboards etc cos they are more likely to fall off and hurt themselves?
Are we gonna put a tax on footballs and rugby balls for fear of sport injuries?
Are we gonna start taking sex aids and birth control etc to stop people injuring themselves having sex (lets face it everyone has an awesome sex injury story)?
Where does the lets tax the f*ck out of people end?
If you start doing it you'll end up with everyone having to pay for private health insurance (apart from the scrounger who don't pay for shit at the moment)
RE: The debate thread - Niall - 28-03-2013
What because of smoking or just a general health issue?
(28-03-2013, 09:27 PM)Dum-Dum Wrote:(28-03-2013, 09:18 PM)Niall Wrote: If you have been smoking since you were 12 and now need a replacement lung, do you think thats fair that we should all pay for that even when there are loads of cuts at the moment?I don't think its fair we all pay for other peoples smoking but as above the average smoker more than pays for their treatment for fag related illnesses over their life in the tax they pay on fags. I think its the same for booze as well.
The problem is where do you stop, I know they are talking about a fast food tax so that all the obese people pay for their treatment but its only gonna peanalise sensible people. Lets face it a grilled chicken kebab with salad aint unhealthy now.
But if they do that are we gonna tax motorcyclists more cos they are more likely to get hurt on the roads than car drivers?
Are we gonna tax people who buy bikes, skateboards etc cos they are more likely to fall off and hurt themselves?
Are we gonna put a tax on footballs and rugby balls for fear of sport injuries?
Are we gonna start taking sex aids and birth control etc to stop people injuring themselves having sex (lets face it everyone has an awesome sex injury story)?
Where does the lets tax the f*ck out of people end?
If you start doing it you'll end up with everyone having to pay for private health insurance (apart from the scrounger who don't pay for shit at the moment)
Thing is dum, most of what your talking about is general day to day living. Everything in life has an associated risk. You cant not take a risk in life no matter how careful you are so all of those things are fair risks. If your a heavy long term smoker, thats a big risk and you are alot more likely to end up with some sort of health issue. which generally when it comes to smoking, is fairly serious.
RE: The debate thread - Dum-Dum - 28-03-2013
Thats the point im making though mate.
We all take risks but where do you draw the line on the level of the risks?
RE: The debate thread - Niall - 28-03-2013
Well i think we can all agree that most illnesses that come from long term smoking are fairly serious to treat? If you fall off a snowboard on holiday and break a leg, its a routine operation to fix it even if it needs plating. breathing issues from smoking can take years and years of treatment to cure if it even can be!
RE: The debate thread - Dum-Dum - 28-03-2013
yeah but BIM they are gonna start taxing junk food cos the fatties cost the NHS too much and really how much risk is being fat?
The debate thread - Jonny b - 28-03-2013
So what would we do with crack heads and browners? They all get treatment and let's be honest, not many of them has put into the coffer
RE: The debate thread - Niall - 28-03-2013
(28-03-2013, 09:43 PM)Dum-Dum Wrote: yeah but BIM they are gonna start taxing junk food cos the fatties cost the NHS too much and really how much risk is being fat?
Thats similar to smoking though. If your fat because you cant walk and are in a wheel chair, thats not really your fault. If your fat because you love cake and cant be asked to exercise, its not everyone elses fault you cant be bothered to look after your body.
The debate thread - Jonny b - 28-03-2013
If your a smoker that's paid in for 20+ years why shouldn't you get treated?
RE: The debate thread - Niall - 28-03-2013
Because problem is, tobacco tax is like road tax. It doesnt go to what people think it does. it just goes into the general pot.