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+--- Thread: Stage 3 shopping list (/showthread.php?tid=10905)
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Stage 3 shopping list - londondan86 - 14-02-2013
Evening chaps!
Going for stage 3 over the coming weeks, just wondering what parts were needed.
So far I've got a turbo on the way.
R70 pump from a 2.2 hdi on the way (is this a straight swap?)
1.6 hdi rail sensor - is this needed
anything else?
Cheers
RE: Stage 3 shopping list - Jonny81191 - 14-02-2013
Yeah, research. Lots and lots of research.
RE: Stage 3 shopping list - 4WayDiablo - 14-02-2013
As Jonny says! Past stage 2 there isn't really set "stages"
RE: Stage 3 shopping list - Just Sean - 14-02-2013
think about refurb/new injecters too
RE: Stage 3 shopping list - londondan86 - 14-02-2013
I know, lots of reading needed. I just want to start getting bits together to avoid getting it all in one go or getting stuff then realizing that it won't work as I still need x
I forgot about injectors, I have read that people use AMG tips but again much research needed
RE: Stage 3 shopping list - Just Sean - 14-02-2013
tbh, id just stick with pug/bosch ones. 072 injectors are what your after, ebay it.
Even some lower mileage ones will do. Anything thats fresher than 10 - 15 year old ones!
RE: Stage 3 shopping list - Midnightclub - 14-02-2013
People used to use the AMG tips but i believe it's the spray angle which is incorrect and they aren't really all that
RE: Stage 3 shopping list - londondan86 - 14-02-2013
(14-02-2013, 08:19 PM)Just Sean Wrote: tbh, id just stick with pug/bosch ones. 072 injectors are what your after, ebay it.
Even some lower mileage ones will do. Anything thats fresher than 10 - 15 year old ones!
Righto, same as the 307 IIRC so some low milage ones should be obtainable.
(14-02-2013, 08:20 PM)Midnightclub Wrote: People used to use the AMG tips but i believe it's the spray angle which is incorrect and they aren't really all that
OK, cheers bud just some decent stock ones it is then
RE: Stage 3 shopping list - Just Sean - 14-02-2013
Yeah exactly that mate!
RE: Stage 3 shopping list - Poodle - 14-02-2013
As said, amg nozzles are awful. Apart from that, the bits you've mentioned are all part of a bigger picture - maybe needed, maybe not. it just depends what your goal is and how you intend to reach it.
You need more fuel and air right? So you've got turbo and intercooler, have you thought of exhaust and head work? You are limited by time on fuel injections, so to beat this are you going for higher flow or higher pressure? What shape is the power curve are you aiming for? Any secondary objectives, drag-strip queen, eco-whore, torque monster?
I could give you a list of part numbers, but it won't mean anything to you if you haven't already done some research.
Some things to look into:
Injector nozzles
Cam timing
Gauges!
I would suggest looking on other forums, (much as i hate to say it, particularly VAG forums) for clues. Google has found me most of my answers, one way or another, it's just a question of persistence.
EDIT: Oh yeah, the 2.2 hdi pump is a direct swap, yes. You will need to use your original FPR (or a new, standard item) though.
RE: Stage 3 shopping list - Ruan - 14-02-2013
I'd personally say that the 2.2 pump is barely worth the upgrade... but that's me...
If I were going for a bigger pump, I'd be going for a *BIGGER* pump...
That's me though...
RE: Stage 3 shopping list - gareth7 - 15-02-2013
drop a pm to tb205gti.........I'd imagine he'd have some really good advice to throw your way mate
RE: Stage 3 shopping list - Arron - 15-02-2013
Ruan is the 330d pump what you'd call a bigger pump?
If I was you I'd pop the Turbo on and then re evaluate the fuelling side of things when you map it in
RE: Stage 3 shopping list - Poodle - 15-02-2013
The 330d pump is the same as the 2.2hdi one, its just not direct fit. Ruans probably talking about a hybrid pump or a gen3 pump, youd need some skills for the first option and aftermarket management for the second... As I said before, it depends how far you want to take it.
RE: Stage 3 shopping list - con67 - 15-02-2013
Personally I'd stick decent sized turbo on first then go from there, see what holds you back before wasting money.
RE: Stage 3 shopping list - Midnightclub - 15-02-2013
This^ the single biggest thing restricting the HDi as standard has to be the turbo, once you've got that out the way you can think from fuel pump, injectors etc onwards..
RE: Stage 3 shopping list - londondan86 - 15-02-2013
Some great advice there chaps and rep to all when I get on the computer later. I think i need to just step back and not get carried away for a minute!!! I'm going to start from the basics I think which will include a full service tomorrow then get the full fat s2 map on and see how it runs. If all good, get the turbo on then map that in and go from there.
And yea I read last week that both the 2.2hdi and the beemer pump are r70's but the pug one is a direct fit.
Is there anyone on this forum pushing more than 160 from their hdi, I know Jonny is close when he gets his fixed.
As for what I am looking for that is a good question, it will still be my daily so it won't be a drag beast. I think the target will be as close to 200bhp as possible with around 320ft/bl of torque and making that power around 4krpm.
RE: Stage 3 shopping list - lolsteve - 15-02-2013
Try going to td04 route? Want to see how it will turn on out a hdi
RE: Stage 3 shopping list - londondan86 - 15-02-2013
(15-02-2013, 06:41 PM)lolsteve Wrote: Try going to td04 route? Want to see how it will turn on out a hdi
RE: Stage 3 shopping list - Adam Canning WSG - 19-02-2013
(15-02-2013, 07:14 PM)londondan86 Wrote:(15-02-2013, 06:41 PM)lolsteve Wrote: Try going to td04 route? Want to see how it will turn on out a hdi
stage 3 will be awesome mate, just a pity i didnt have the know-how or funds to get by stage 2 lol ;p
RE: Stage 3 shopping list - Ruan - 19-02-2013
If it were me personally doing a stage 3 HDi...
Nozzles, big turbo, CP3 pump, 1800bar sensor.
Given all of those and the other supporting bits and bobs, you should easily be good for 200hp reliably... IMO trying to eek 200hp out of a R70 pump on stock nozzles is asking for failure... No reason a CP3 pump shouldn't work, as far as I can see the regulator is near enough the same item...
No reason you can't twin pump either, though regulation may be a problem...
RE: Stage 3 shopping list - Poodle - 20-02-2013
You reckon we'll be alright running gen 3 pumps on our ecus then? Hmmm, may have to talk to you later...
For twin pump you would just need to regulate the rail rather than the pumps, so find something of a suitable size to fit and get some lines made up. May need to adjust the tables that control the fpr duty cycle, but apart from that...
RE: Stage 3 shopping list - Ruan - 20-02-2013
The most interesting part that I can see is that the CP3 pumps do seem to work slightly differently than the CP1 pumps - however whether the regulation side works the same I do not know...
The CP3 has a system kinda like the Bosch VE pumps, they have a gear driven pump inside the pump also that supplies the radial piston pumps inside with fuel:
![[Image: CP3flowchart.GIF]](http://www.relentlessdiesel.com/media/fprmods/CP3flowchart.GIF)
Notice that the regulator on these controls the flow rate *BEFORE* the piston pumps... Does the CP1 control the pressure AFTER the piston pumps?
Where my question and maybe confusion lies is that on some CP1 based systems, they have the regulator built into the rail, so does this mean as a general rule that the CP1 is regulated after the pump, or before the pump? If it's the same system as the CP3, then we should be good to go, from my research the regulator is VERY similar to the CP1 regulator, which makes me think that probably the regulation side of it is probably the same, from the pictures I can see of CP1s, I cannot tell if they are the same.
A big CP3 pump would be absolutely CHRONIC in my honest opinion, you'd literally have NO problems with any fuel flow. The tables controlling duty cycle will have to be changed for certain, whether the PID control values will have to be changed for the ECU to be able to control over and undershoot when the IQ changes, I do not know... However every company manufacturing Diesels now seems to have gone straight towards CP3s.
RE: Stage 3 shopping list - lolsteve - 20-02-2013
A quick look on ebay shows the cp3 pumps being about £400 XD
Maybe thats a route not for the masses
RE: Stage 3 shopping list - Ruan - 20-02-2013
In the same way as if you search for a CP1 pump, they're about 200-300 quid!
You've just got to do some searching...
Though I do love how we're all complaining about a £400 CR pump - you do realise that the TDi boys and big Duramax/Cummins CR are spending £500 on a set of nozzles, £800 on a modified CP3 pump, £1k on a turbo and manifold...
That's what proper Diesel tuning costs, if you're going more than a stage 2-3 ish, you need to be looking at spending some good money... As I've said before, with the right supporting modifications, no reason 300hp can't be seen on an 8v HDi. Technically it's a better engine than the PD TDi, it's just that there's other problems to overcome first, don't fear, the TDis have other, more expensive problems to fix to get past the 230hp ish mark!
I love how STILL no one is measuring exhaust manifold pressure, yet, even though the hydraulic lifters are KNOWN to be affected by high exhaust pressure.
RE: Stage 3 shopping list - Arron - 20-02-2013
Yea, the hydrolic lifters dont really like high revs.
Agree with ruan.. For big power pushing past stage 2 wil cost ££££'s. /Think the R70 is a feasable upgrade for most of us, again id consider the blower to be the biggest restriction
RE: Stage 3 shopping list - Ruan - 20-02-2013
The actual engine RPMs they do not care about...
The only thing they do care about is exhaust pressure... But there's a way to solve the issues of exhaust pressure IMO quite easily, at least enough to sort the problem whilst keeping hydraulic lifters... Going to solid lifter is NOT the way forwards for the vast majority of people, it's too much effort - it requires a cam regrind, I reckon soon after you solidise it, you'll wreck the rockers...
I think I've already even mentioned it on here, but there's other cars using near enough identical lifter/rocker designs, but don't have these issues.
You don't need to spend massive amounts of money to solve the problems associated with the lifters IMO.
RE: Stage 3 shopping list - lolsteve - 20-02-2013
So are you saying we need some phat exhausts!? #chavtime
RE: Stage 3 shopping list - Ruan - 20-02-2013
Nope... The exhaust itself is probably OK infact...
RE: Stage 3 shopping list - londondan86 - 20-02-2013
Great info there Ruan. I think you mean getting some headwork done, porting, polishing, valve modifications, etc.
Theres some great info in Brynwllyogg's thread on the dark side for anyone that is interested