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+--- Thread: 9mm vs 11mm pumps (/showthread.php?tid=2845)
Re: 9mm vs 11mm pumps - darrenjlobb - 26-04-2012
Lol not had any time to work on it recently, and not doing it until flow bench is totaly finished, then can demonstrate what im talking about live / show results.
Re: 9mm vs 11mm pumps - mark_airey - 26-04-2012
Dum-Dum Wrote:mark_airey Wrote:I +1 the two posts above, what argument are you going to lock the thread over again?
Its all through the last 2 pages. Ive just read it all in 1 go so it seems obvious to me. I wouldnt threaten to lock a thread if there was no need.
There has not really been anything other than banter and the odd opinion though, nothing worthy of locking the thread over, its a civilized discussion, its an interesting subject and there are many interesting things being brought up
Re: 9mm vs 11mm pumps - d-jimbo - 26-04-2012
i agree, i'm not arguing i just dont think it would hurt for people to be a little more open and willing to divulge helpful info that it might have taken 3 hours of reading forums or knowing the right person to find out. i agree that the best way is to crack a pump open and have a look. however, it was mainly down to darren's youtube guides that actually got me interested in 306s in the first place and made me realise that its not rocket science to get a few extra ponies and actually wanna find out more stuff.
also, i could've bought a mk 4 golf and when i thought about it i did a bit of sick in my mouth.
Re: 9mm vs 11mm pumps - darrenjlobb - 26-04-2012
I am going to make a VE video at some point, but as ive already pointed out, im waiting until i can make it as complete as I can, and will pretty much explain every last element of the pumps / show what effects changing them has etc...will no doubt spark alot of controversy tho online given how much people abuse anything anyone says heh....
What I wont be doing however is telling you how long to machine this bit to, and how much to drill that to, just that you can, and where, and the effects....telling everyone how to precisely mod there pump would destroy A lots of peoples buisness's, and b the hard work of the people that have been arsed to do it and make there car DIFFERENT, people following like sheep just ends up in loads of people doing the same thing...How many people on this forum run a t24 /td04 these days? theres lots of other turbos you know, but its just about always one of those two, but why? the point is that if we all told everyone everything, then no ones cars would be unique / intresting, how boring would that be?
Re: 9mm vs 11mm pumps - 4WayDiablo - 26-04-2012
d-jimbo Wrote:i agree, i'm not arguing i just dont think it would hurt for people to be a little more open and willing to divulge helpful info that it might have taken 3 hours of reading forums or knowing the right person to find out. i agree that the best way is to crack a pump open and have a look. however, it was mainly down to darren's youtube guides that actually got me interested in 306s in the first place and made me realise that its not rocket science to get a few extra ponies and actually wanna find out more stuff.I don't think its a mater of not being willing to divulge info which takes 3 hours of reading. I think to start playing around with these pumps you should know what does what and how it effects things
also, i could've bought a mk 4 golf and when i thought about it i did a bit of sick in my mouth.
If its handed to you on a plate are you going to "learn" or just go out do it and come back asking for more
Re: 9mm vs 11mm pumps - d-jimbo - 26-04-2012
So how did u go about learning?
Re: 9mm vs 11mm pumps - Dum-Dum - 26-04-2012
darrenjlobb Wrote:the hard work of the people that have been arsed to do it and make there car DIFFERENT, people following like sheep just ends up in loads of people doing the same thing...How many people on this forum run a t24 /td04 these days? theres lots of other turbos you know, but its just about always one of those two, but why? the point is that if we all told everyone everything, then no ones cars would be unique / intresting, how boring would that be?
The sheep thing does annoy me but i take it as flattery personally.
Its one of the reasons I really want another BMW as nobody over here really mods them so I can do what I like with very little to influence my decisions (apart from lack of parts).
Oh and it comes with a TD04 standard so I can be cool (jokes)
Re: 9mm vs 11mm pumps - Ed Doe - 26-04-2012
Dan! Wrote:Whats the difference between someone on here telling you how to do something than somebody else on the internet telling you to do something?!
The difference is when you're looking for one thing, you stumble on 6 different threads with some information pertaining to what you were looking for, along with a whole load of other information relating to it which you didnt know but needed to know to make your car that much better. So actually yes, researching yourself by using the internet is better; you learn more.
d-jimbo Wrote:So how did u go about learning?
He bought my car. Ruan Darren & I spend a long time on our 3 cars at the time. I always remember Darren spent hours on the internet researching bits. Mostly cause none of us could work out why his hybrid turbo wasnt making way more power than it should. Darren very quickly learnt a lot more than I did because he made sense of what he was reading and knew what to do with that knowledge. As a result a few years on he's the one pushing the boundaries in a big way. I'm sorry but if you cant be arsed to do a bit of reading for yourself you either deserve to pay for the services or be forever condemned to a life filled with insufficient boost.
Darren linked me to the vag forums back in the day and I used to spend prettymuch every evening reading them after uni. We used to end up on msn/skype/phone for hours at a time discussing stuff around the time con and darren 1st did the 11mm head conversions. Obv he then found way more bits in the course of trying to figure out why his car wasn't going as well as it should, and I didnt read this. So I ended up with my 11mm gov modded pump, which was providing me with way more fuel than I could use on the t2. Time and money at the end of uni, and becoming worried about reliability with starting a new job meant i didnt end up taking it further, or I'd have bloody gone and researched it.
/rant
Re: 9mm vs 11mm pumps - darrenjlobb - 26-04-2012
Ed Doe Wrote:Dan! Wrote:Whats the difference between someone on here telling you how to do something than somebody else on the internet telling you to do something?!
The difference is when you're looking for one thing, you stumble on 6 different threads with some information pertaining to what you were looking for, along with a whole load of other information relating to it which you didnt know but needed to know to make your car that much better. So actually yes, researching yourself by using the internet is better; you learn more.
d-jimbo Wrote:So how did u go about learning?
He bought my car. Ruan Darren & I spend a long time on our 3 cars at the time. I always remember Darren spent hours on the internet researching bits. Mostly cause none of us could work out why his hybrid turbo wasnt making way more power than it should. Darren very quickly learnt a lot more than I did because he made sense of what he was reading and knew what to do with that knowledge. As a result a few years on he's the one pushing the boundaries in a big way. I'm sorry but if you cant be arsed to do a bit of reading for yourself you either deserve to pay for the services or be forever condemned to a life filled with insufficient boost.
Darren linked me to the VAGaygay forums back in the day and I used to spend prettymuch every evening reading them after uni. We used to end up on msn/skype/phone for hours at a time discussing stuff around the time con and darren 1st did the 11mm head conversions. Obv he then found way more bits in the course of trying to figure out why his car wasn't going as well as it should, and I didnt read this. So I ended up with my 11mm gov modded pump, which was providing me with way more fuel than I could use on the t2. Time and money at the end of uni, and becoming worried about reliability with starting a new job meant i didnt end up taking it further, or I'd have bloody gone and researched it.
/rant
Pft, derv head at the start, derv head throughout, you just havent come to terms with it yet, itl catch up with you one day.....one day....tick tock....
tick.....
tock....
Re: 9mm vs 11mm pumps - Fooby - 26-04-2012
Ed Doe Wrote:Dan! Wrote:Whats the difference between someone on here telling you how to do something than somebody else on the internet telling you to do something?!
The difference is when you're looking for one thing, you stumble on 6 different threads with some information pertaining to what you were looking for, along with a whole load of other information relating to it which you didnt know but needed to know to make your car that much better. So actually yes, researching yourself by using the internet is better; you learn more.
d-jimbo Wrote:So how did u go about learning?
He bought my car. Ruan Darren & I spend a long time on our 3 cars at the time. I always remember Darren spent hours on the internet researching bits. Mostly cause none of us could work out why his hybrid turbo wasnt making way more power than it should. Darren very quickly learnt a lot more than I did because he made sense of what he was reading and knew what to do with that knowledge. As a result a few years on he's the one pushing the boundaries in a big way. I'm sorry but if you cant be arsed to do a bit of reading for yourself you either deserve to pay for the services or be forever condemned to a life filled with insufficient boost.
Darren linked me to the VAGaygay forums back in the day and I used to spend prettymuch every evening reading them after uni. We used to end up on msn/skype/phone for hours at a time discussing stuff around the time con and darren 1st did the 11mm head conversions. Obv he then found way more bits in the course of trying to figure out why his car wasn't going as well as it should, and I didnt read this. So I ended up with my 11mm gov modded pump, which was providing me with way more fuel than I could use on the t2. Time and money at the end of uni, and becoming worried about reliability with starting a new job meant i didnt end up taking it further, or I'd have bloody gone and researched it.
/rant
/thread
Re: 9mm vs 11mm pumps - 4WayDiablo - 26-04-2012
Ed Doe Wrote:becoming worried about reliabilityAh so the real reason why you sold me the car is out! Haha. It promptly shitting a turbo over the a27 a week later lol.
/lol jk
It was actually really good experience having a play with that turbo and understanding it
It just really is a shame that at the time I didn't have the balls for a bigger blower
Re: 9mm vs 11mm pumps - darrenjlobb - 26-04-2012
4WayDiablo Wrote:Ed Doe Wrote:becoming worried about reliabilityAh so the real reason why you sold me the car is out! Haha. It promptly shitting a turbo over the a27 a week later lol.
/lol jk
It was actually really good experience having a play with that turbo and understanding it
It just really is a shame that at the time I didn't have the balls for a bigger blower
Which is why you need to get a move on blowing this one so you can!
Re: 9mm vs 11mm pumps - d-jimbo - 27-04-2012
lol. 'or be forever condemned to a life filled with insufficient boost' ... sounds like a fate worse than death. i know exactly what ur sayin though. u do stumble across extra info whilst trying to find one thing out. chances are though u'll miss somethin that could screw u over too. but then thats the chance u take i suppose!
Re: 9mm vs 11mm pumps - d-jimbo - 27-04-2012
i'm also down the route of needing reliability for my new job but dont wanna give up on doin this so i think i'm gonna get a backup car for when it breaks (again)
Re: 9mm vs 11mm pumps - Ed Doe - 27-04-2012
Changing a turbo is a right of passage for any Dturbo owner. You have to do it 
I watched Darren and helped where I could 1st time round, then ended up having to do it on my own after shitting the gt15 @ 30psi! Took me 5days working in the evenings on my own at my Gran's, whilst commuting to Reading every day for a work placement (on the 5:10 train, back at 7:30pm, work till 1am, sleep, repeat!)Djimbo, get a nad as a 2nd car
Re: 9mm vs 11mm pumps - d-jimbo - 27-04-2012
ive changed the turbo a couple of times, it was more the changing of the engine as it was completely destroyed. (i'll upload some pics later) the lesson from that one - static advance is balls. a pointless engine killer.
as for the nad, i'd rather not... either another d turbo or hdi or something. ideally get my bike test done and have my wr400f on the road. that would be sweet!
Re: 9mm vs 11mm pumps - Dan! - 27-04-2012
d-jimbo Wrote:.... the lesson from that one - static advance is balls. a pointless engine killer.
Elaborate?
Re: 9mm vs 11mm pumps - Dave - 27-04-2012
d-jimbo Wrote:static advance is balls.
Needed for making torque in high rpm though, derv has similar calorific value of petrol but burns much much slower, so starting the burn much before TDC is needed.
I killed my 1st XUD running horrendous advance on a setup that didnt need it.
Re: 9mm vs 11mm pumps - d-jimbo - 27-04-2012
yeah i understand that, but the advance high in the rpm range would be added by dynamic advance rather than static. as far as i know, static advance may give a bit of a power increase but at the cost of much greater forces through the engine, particularly the conrods.
Re: 9mm vs 11mm pumps - mark_airey - 27-04-2012
d-jimbo Wrote:yeah i understand that, but the advance high in the rpm range would be added by dynamic advance rather than static. as far as i know, static advance may give a bit of a power increase but at the cost of much greater forces through the engine, particularly the conrods.
More static advance means that the dynamic advance advances the timing that little bit further at full chat thus increasing the power higher up the revs
Re: 9mm vs 11mm pumps - d-jimbo - 27-04-2012
true... but did u do this due to not being able to increase the dynamic advance any further? i would have thought that even with the static at standard with a well set up pump that the dynamic advance can be altered to do enough?
Re: 9mm vs 11mm pumps - mark_airey - 27-04-2012
d-jimbo Wrote:true... but did u do this due to not being able to increase the dynamic advance any further? i would have thought that even with the static at standard with a well set up pump that the dynamic advance can be altered to do enough?
I haven't done it, I was merely answering your question.......although mine is slightly advanced its not that bad at all TBH!
Re: 9mm vs 11mm pumps - Ruan - 27-04-2012
d-jimbo Wrote:true... but did u do this due to not being able to increase the dynamic advance any further? i would have thought that even with the static at standard with a well set up pump that the dynamic advance can be altered to do enough?
Off you trot and get 30* of dynamic timing from a stock Bosch VE then
Good luck!
Just FYI - 600hp Mercedes OM606s run with NO dynamic timing...
Re: 9mm vs 11mm pumps - Dave - 27-04-2012
d-jimbo Wrote:true... but did u do this due to not being able to increase the dynamic advance any further? i would have thought that even with the static at standard with a well set up pump that the dynamic advance can be altered to do enough?
Yeh thats a good point, however the pumps dynamic advance system isnt capable of advancing anywhere near 6,000 in stock form, then when it is setup properly with cage pin and spring modifications the advance needs to be more exponential at those sorts of rpm's rather than the linear system thats used, which is why more power is made with abit of static tweaking aswell.
Ruan Wrote:Off you trot and get 30* of dynamic timing from a stock Bosch VE then
Good luck!
Just FYI - 600hp Mercedes OM606s run with NO dynamic timing...
Alt+0176 8-)
Re: 9mm vs 11mm pumps - Ruan - 27-04-2012
It's such a ballache as I'm on a laptop... It goes...
FN+Scrl Alt+MJ7O FN+Scrl... As it's got no keypad...
Sod that!
Re: 9mm vs 11mm pumps - d-jimbo - 27-04-2012
Ruan Wrote:d-jimbo Wrote:true... but did u do this due to not being able to increase the dynamic advance any further? i would have thought that even with the static at standard with a well set up pump that the dynamic advance can be altered to do enough?
Off you trot and get 30* of dynamic timing from a stock Bosch VE then
Good luck!
Just FYI - 600hp Mercedes OM606s run with NO dynamic timing...
By 'well set up' i meant not stock. is 30* possible with just dynamic (standard static) if appropriately modded then?
Re: 9mm vs 11mm pumps - Ruan - 27-04-2012
Nigh on impossible...
Would take some SERIOUS modification to the pump to make that happen reliably...
They're only designed for sorta 5000rpm TOPS... Remember a XUD9 is considered a "High Speed Diesel".... In Bosch VE land that's about as fast as you can spin one.... Cummins 4/6BT with these pumps spin to about 2500rpm... A 4000 GSK is considered a wild mod...
Re: 9mm vs 11mm pumps - d-jimbo - 27-04-2012
i see... whats a 4000 gsk when its at home?
Re: 9mm vs 11mm pumps - mark_airey - 27-04-2012
d-jimbo Wrote:i see... whats a 4000 gsk when its at home?
IIRC 4000 rpm gov spring
Re: 9mm vs 11mm pumps - darrenjlobb - 27-04-2012
Correct Mark lol, the cummins motors just run single acting springs rather than the packs we have, and what Ruan said is exactly what I was getting at before but no one listened, rpms are the issue, anyone can make ve's make chronic fuel mid range, but no one has turbos that match it, hence the vicious circle issue ive already discussed.