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Re: UNI Rant - Niall - 13-04-2012
ginge191 Wrote:Kimmie Wrote:I don't agree at all with what you've just said. I actually think it's pretty important for a manager to understand the role his staff carry out, otherwise how can you effectively manage them??
That's not exactly what i said, i said he/she doesn't need to know HOW TO do the job, the understanding of a job is crucial - the provision of safe work, equipment, stock, and again time management is all crucial, and to understand all of this, you must understand the work - not HOW TO do the work, this was more what i was going for.
IIRC Niall is an electrician?? apologies if wrong, but nonetheless and example, he knows HOW TO do the work, there would be a line manager somewhere along the line distributing the work, maintaining even work loads, ensuring everyone is equipped for the work and not overlapping the jobs. This manager won't necessarily know HOW TO take on the specific jobs and be a specilaist tradesman.
Please correct me if im completely wrong, but this has been the case for my previous work.
But again, i agree certain jobs require management who have worked up from the bottom.
Ooh I missed this post.
Ginge I'm a fire alarm engineer however my role does involve a fair bit of electrical work as well as many other aspects.
Yes there is a manager who distributes work and maintains even work load.
This manager has to know HOW TO do the job so he can distribute the work fairly and efficiently. If he didn't know how to do the job, he would be unaware of time scales and equipment needed as well as staff levels for a particular job and this would lead to over run jobs, extra cost, a unhappy work force and customer and he would get a bollocking from his manager.
This is the reason why most good managers more than likely started somewhere near the bottom of the pole. Because they have to understand the job to do their job.
Re: UNI Rant - Eeyore - 14-04-2012
ginge191 Wrote:Just to chuck another spanner in the works..
Along the line of "if you can't afford it, you shouldn't go."
Please remember who COULD afford university, the rich, the higher classes and importantly the "ETON boys", Cameron, Borris, Clegg etc.
Those who have very little touch with the real type of lifestyle - this privalege has been opened up now to nearly everyone IF they want to. Not everyone wants to attend uni - and the protests was by those who WANT to study, not just random yobs.
So i ask again, should uni really be a privalege for the rich to get richer..
^^ THIS! :hand:
Re: UNI Rant - Niall - 14-04-2012
ginge191 Wrote:So i ask again, should uni really be a privalege for the rich to get richer..
Ok now I'm assuming by this statement that you mean that the rich will become richer because if there the only people who can go to uni, uni will help them prosper more than someone who hasn't been to uni. Correct?
I fail to see where there is a link between being a uni student and being successful in life? Simply isn't true!
Re: UNI Rant - Kezzieboy - 14-04-2012
Yes. It is. Most of the typically upper or upper-middle-class job roles require a degree. Doctors, lawyers, solicitors, engineers, and the vast majority of bankers are graduates. A degree, MOST of the time, opens up more opportunities to the graduate, obviously, otherwise nobody would bother?!
Re: UNI Rant - Niall - 15-04-2012
With the exception of a extremely limited list of jobs (pretty much what you have listed), that's utter crap. People only think you have To go to Uni to succeed because that's what the government wanted people to think.
As previously said, look at some of the best business men in this country. Did they need Uni?
Re: UNI Rant - Jonny b - 15-04-2012
i never went to uni, neither did my old man! in fact i done a bit of a spell at her maj's pleasure in my foolish days yet we now now run a company that turns over on average 230k a month, never knew feck all about my trade started over 10 years ago as a bench worker in electronic manufacturing worked my way up in that place, then the old man decided to start a company wanted me on board and now we have 16 employees and the rest as they say is history
Re: UNI Rant - ginge191 - 15-04-2012
Niall, i was merley following that statment i made regarding the -privaleged attending uni, that sentence was taken slightly out of context
but no, there are many people who can 'succeed' wihout a degree, most deifnitely, but as said, there are many carreers, typically higher paid carreers which do require a degree - nurse, doctors, teachers, lawyers, judeges, solicitors.. it goes on.. as for buisness, that job market can be obtained through hard work and determination, as buisness isn't a specialist skill in comparison
Re: UNI Rant - Eeyore - 15-04-2012
ginge191 Wrote:Niall, i was merley following that statment i made regarding the -privaleged attending uni, that sentence was taken slightly out of context
but no, there are many people who can 'succeed' wihout a degree, most deifnitely, but as said, there are many carreers, typically higher paid carreers which do require a degree - nurse, doctors, teachers, lawyers, judeges, solicitors.. it goes on.. as for buisness, that job market can be obtained through hard work and determination, as buisness isn't a specialist skill in comparison
^^^^^ THIS! :hand:
Re: UNI Rant - Connor - 15-04-2012
SRowell Wrote:^^^^^ THIS! :hand:
THIS...... Makes you look retarded if you over do it...
Re: UNI Rant - Niall - 15-04-2012
Connor Wrote:SRowell Wrote:^^^^^ THIS! :hand:
THIS...... Makes you look retarded if you over do it...
Agreed. Nothing good to say, don't say anything! Might as well call you Phil!
Ginge completely agree that certain trades (the ones you have listed) do require high level education. End of the day, you can't practice open heart surgery can you?! And for these particular trades, I do believe that government funding is essential. As a country we are screaming out for doctors, nurses, lawyers ect but the problem is, not that many uni students want to do it!
This is just my findings from talking to numerous people of my age who are at/going to uni but with the exception of 1, not a single one is going to uni to learn for a trade that requires it. Intact most are going for the experience of uni and I think it's wrong that tax payers money goes on this when it could be better spent else where (like apprentiships).
End of the day (and this is not a generalisation on all students) why should I be paying for someone to go to uni for the experience or for them to learn as a hobby? Don't get me wrong I have nothing against learning something you enjoy but you should pay for it if you can afford it. Much like anything in life.
Re: UNI Rant - ginge191 - 15-04-2012
Niall Wrote:Agreed. Nothing good to say, don't say anything! Might as well call you Phil!
Ginge completely agree that certain trades (the ones you have listed) do require high level education. End of the day, you can't practice open heart surgery can you?! And for these particular trades, I do believe that government funding is essential. As a country we are screaming out for doctors, nurses, lawyers ect but the problem is, not that many uni students want to do it!
This is just my findings from talking to numerous people of my age who are at/going to uni but with the exception of 1, not a single one is going to uni to learn for a trade that requires it. Intact most are going for the experience of uni and I think it's wrong that tax payers money goes on this when it could be better spent else where (like apprentiships).
End of the day (and this is not a generalisation on all students) why should I be paying for someone to go to uni for the experience or for them to learn as a hobby? Don't get me wrong I have nothing against learning something you enjoy but you should pay for it if you can afford it. Much like anything in life.
Now you're taking the conversation away from personal choice to government assistance - making it more accessbile to more students which is a tasty offer to many low income families.
The conversation revolving around tax money and where this goes i think we can all take a say on that - for example, main roads on the IOW have been turned into dirt tracks, no lie. Gravel EVERYWHERE
Re: UNI Rant - Connor - 15-04-2012
I have no problem with students being LOANED money to learn, as long as its payed back... And not fobbed off
Re: UNI Rant - Niall - 15-04-2012
Ginge my beef was never with personal choice. If you want to spend 3 years learning sociology, that's your choice. My problem is with the government funding this.
As connaaarr said, if these loans were payed back, there's not really a problem but realistically, most never will be!
Re: UNI Rant - Kezzieboy - 15-04-2012
Niall Wrote:Agreed. Nothing good to say, don't say anything! Might as well call you Phil!
Ginge completely agree that certain trades (the ones you have listed) do require high level education. End of the day, you can't practice open heart surgery can you?! And for these particular trades, I do believe that government funding is essential. As a country we are screaming out for doctors, nurses, lawyers ect but the problem is, not that many uni students want to do it!
This is just my findings from talking to numerous people of my age who are at/going to uni but with the exception of 1, not a single one is going to uni to learn for a trade that requires it. Intact most are going for the experience of uni and I think it's wrong that tax payers money goes on this when it could be better spent else where (like apprentiships).
End of the day (and this is not a generalisation on all students) why should I be paying for someone to go to uni for the experience or for them to learn as a hobby? Don't get me wrong I have nothing against learning something you enjoy but you should pay for it if you can afford it. Much like anything in life.
Dunno who you've been talking to, but I'd say less than 10% of the students I've met are there 'for the uni experience', the vast majority are there to learn, and at least 30% are doing degrees that lead directly on to a job.
Re: UNI Rant - Niall - 15-04-2012
Kezzieboy Wrote:Niall Wrote:Agreed. Nothing good to say, don't say anything! Might as well call you Phil!
Ginge completely agree that certain trades (the ones you have listed) do require high level education. End of the day, you can't practice open heart surgery can you?! And for these particular trades, I do believe that government funding is essential. As a country we are screaming out for doctors, nurses, lawyers ect but the problem is, not that many uni students want to do it!
This is just my findings from talking to numerous people of my age who are at/going to uni but with the exception of 1, not a single one is going to uni to learn for a trade that requires it. Intact most are going for the experience of uni and I think it's wrong that tax payers money goes on this when it could be better spent else where (like apprentiships).
End of the day (and this is not a generalisation on all students) why should I be paying for someone to go to uni for the experience or for them to learn as a hobby? Don't get me wrong I have nothing against learning something you enjoy but you should pay for it if you can afford it. Much like anything in life.
Dunno who you've been talking to, but I'd say less than 10% of the students I've met are there 'for the uni experience', the vast majority are there to learn, and at least 30% are doing degrees that lead directly on to a job.
How dillusional are you if you think that a degree leads directly to a job?
Sorry but no degree, no matter how specialised leads directly to a job. I can't stand people who think they can walk out of uni into a job that pays 40k+ just because they went to uni!
Re: UNI Rant - ginge191 - 15-04-2012
But, again, that's not to say that hose jobs requiring a degree pay -40k
Re: UNI Rant - Niall - 15-04-2012
ginge191 Wrote:But, again, that's not to say that hose jobs requiring a degree pay -40k
No but no one said that. I was just using 40k as a example figure of what I would call a good wage.
Point is, no matter how good a course you do, you are never guaranteed a job. So many people seem to be almost brainwashed into thinking that uni is a doorway to success. I know my school tried to make us believe this. Wether all schools do this I don't know but i personally think they do as all education is about now days is figures.
Re: UNI Rant - Kezzieboy - 15-04-2012
Niall Wrote:How dillusional are you if you think that a degree leads directly to a job?
Sorry but no degree, no matter how specialised leads directly to a job. I can't stand people who think they can walk out of uni into a job that pays 40k+ just because they went to uni!
Seriously, what are you on about?!
We literally JUST told you what jobs require a degree? I'm set to walk straight out of uni and into an engineering job, not paying £40k (dunno why that matters, or is relevant anyway), but probably paying around £25k to start, and working it's way up to £50k plus (as I NEED my degree to get chartered, which is a huge salary multiplier).
Re: UNI Rant - Niall - 15-04-2012
Kezzieboy Wrote:Niall Wrote:How dillusional are you if you think that a degree leads directly to a job?
Sorry but no degree, no matter how specialised leads directly to a job. I can't stand people who think they can walk out of uni into a job that pays 40k+ just because they went to uni!
Seriously, what are you on about?!
We literally JUST told you what jobs require a degree? I'm set to walk straight out of uni and into an engineering job, not paying £40k (dunno why that matters, or is relevant anyway), but probably paying around £25k to start, and working it's way up to £50k plus (as I NEED my degree to get chartered, which is a huge salary multiplier).
In which case you are very dillusional.
Yes I agree in your case, you need higher education for that level of medicine but just because you have the degree doesn't mean you WILL get the job. Yes you might be highly educated in your field but that doesn't mean you can work in the real world and wih an attitude of "everyone wants me" like that, I think you will be dissapointed when you finish uni and your not in the job you want next day.
Re: UNI Rant - Kezzieboy - 15-04-2012
Niall Wrote:Kezzieboy Wrote:In which case you are very dillusional.
Yes I agree in your case, you need higher education for that level of medicine but just because you have the degree doesn't mean you WILL get the job. Yes you might be highly educated in your field but that doesn't mean you can work in the real world and wih an attitude of "everyone wants me" like that, I think you will be dissapointed when you finish uni and your not in the job you want next day.
I already have guaranteed employment with an Engineering firm that I did a year placement with if I so choose, I TURNED DOWN their bursary scheme because I didn't want to tie myself in for so long. There is still huge demand for engineers, and coming from a prestigious, red-brick university, with previous industry experience is a highly favourable position.
I may hang around for the RIGHT job that I'm looking for, in the Automotive sector, but there are plenty of jobs out there if you aren't so fussy.
I'm afraid you don't actually know everything Niall. Shocker.
Re: UNI Rant - Niall - 15-04-2012
Fair play I thought you was in medicine. Obviously not
No your correct I don't but you still can't not deny my original point of uni does not guarantee a well paying job. Fair play if you have been working but have you not seen how many unemployed people we have in this country? Why do we need more and more highly educated people to do a job that doesn't exist!?
Or do you genuinely believe that the UK would be a better place if everyone was highly educated because if so, that brings me back to the point of everyone had there place and if everyone does prestigious, high payed jobs, who's going to do things like empty your bins?
Re: UNI Rant - lewisdmz - 15-04-2012
I think we're mixing up the way the system works e.g. higher education available to all who want to pursue it - a good thing
vs.
how people behave within that system - not always great.
Govt funded degrees are essential to the future of this country in every aspect in the 21st century. The list of jobs/research positions which require a undergrad/postgrad are endless and so are the benefits they will bring to this country.
Niall Wrote:With the exception of a extremely limited list of jobs (pretty much what you have listed), that's utter crap. People only think you have To go to Uni to succeed because that's what the government wanted people to think.
As previously said, look at some of the best business men in this country. Did they need Uni?
Only the naive thing you need to go to uni to succeed because you don't. People always quote Alan Sugar as an example as if he's the norm!
Here are some figures from ONS:
Qualification
Median hourly pay (£)
Degree 16.10
Higher education 12.60
A Levels 10.00
GCSE grades A*-C 8.68
Other qualifications 8.07
No qualification 6.93
Niall Wrote:Or do you genuinely believe that the UK would be a better place if everyone was highly educated because if so, that brings me back to the point of everyone had there place and if everyone does prestigious, high payed jobs, who's going to do things like empty your bins?
There's plenty of people from all walks of life and cultures sat on the dole right now because they think they are too good to do a wide variety of jobs, ever worked in a hotel? All the cleaning/kitchen staff are foreign because they willing to work bloody hard for low pay and don't have the inflated sense of self-entitlement that has developed in many white english people. Definitely went off on a tangent there but o well.
Re: UNI Rant - n0v0s - 15-04-2012
Niall Wrote:As a country we are screaming out for doctors, nurses, lawyers ect but the problem is, not that many uni students want to do it!
.
Niall, it's quite the opposite - Medicine is the most competitive course around, something stupid like 100/200 applicants apply per place at Manchester (was the most applied for choice back in 2009 follwed by Liverpool IIRC).. this was whittled down to 20 people who got interviewed for my place of which there are 400 of per year. So my point is, theres much more applicants than actual places for medicine/dentistry. After Uni, medicine is dog eat dog. Literally.
So much so it's acutally quite depressing, then when you add on the RELATIVELY bollocks pay and stupid hours and years of further training, you wonder just why the fk so many people apply for it :| ..but they do. Need heads checking
Re: UNI Rant - Niall - 15-04-2012
n0v0s Wrote:Niall Wrote:As a country we are screaming out for doctors, nurses, lawyers ect but the problem is, not that many uni students want to do it!
.
Niall, it's quite the opposite - Medicine is the most competitive course around, something stupid like 100/200 applicants apply per place at Manchester (was the most applied for choice back in 2009 follwed by Liverpool IIRC).. this was whittled down to 20 people who got interviewed for my place of which there are 400 of per year. So my point is, theres much more applicants than actual places for medicine/dentistry. After Uni, medicine is dog eat dog. Literally.
So much so it's acutally quite depressing, then when you add on the RELATIVELY bollocks pay and stupid hours and years of further training, you wonder just why the fk so many people apply for it :| ..but they do. Need heads checking
Ok fair enough tbh I did make a general assumption with that statement across all the education critical jobs that have been mentioned in this thread.
I know from speaking to people in law at my old jobthat this was the case but then again it's only ever opinion just like this entire thread!
You have however just backed up a point that I made that there is not enough jobs out there for all these graduates and should these unis and government be telling people that uni is the way to succeed in life just for these people to be let down when they complete there degree and don't get a job doing what they want?
Btw I do apologise for going epoch topic in this thread by epic amounts
Re: UNI Rant - Kezzieboy - 15-04-2012
Niall Wrote:Fair play I thought you was in medicine. Obviously not
No your correct I don't but you still can't not deny my original point of uni does not guarantee a well paying job. Fair play if you have been working but have you not seen how many unemployed people we have in this country? Why do we need more and more highly educated people to do a job that doesn't exist!?
Or do you genuinely believe that the UK would be a better place if everyone was highly educated because if so, that brings me back to the point of everyone had there place and if everyone does prestigious, high payed jobs, who's going to do things like empty your bins?
No, it doesn't, but apart from the minority that are abusing the system (as Lewis rightly points out), I believe you DO leave university as a better rounded person compared to 3 years of menial, minimum wage labour. That's not to say that apprenticeships etc don't offer the same improvements, and I do believe we should be pushing the alternatives to university, as it really isn't for everyone, and the way they put it at college it seemed like a choice between going to university and being successful, or being a bin-man/toilet cleaner/tesco till tart etc.
But I do genuinely believe that we should be pushing for an increasingly qualified (notice not using the word 'educated') work-force, and I still struggle to believe that we'll reach a point where there will be nobody left to do menial work (again, as Lewis says, most of these jobs are done by migrant workers, as people would rather sit on the bloody dole anyway), and if we do, by that point we'll probably have come up with some sort of automatic system because of all the engineering graduates
Oooh, also worth noting, there is still massive competition to get a 'good' degree, I know for a fact there were more than 2 people per place applying for my course (had to give the interviewer a blowie, but it was worth it)
Re: UNI Rant - Niall - 15-04-2012
As I've always said, I really have no problem with further education but why should we as tax payers be paying for people's education that they won't use? (btw I'm not saying that's the case for all uni goers because it isn't).
If you had two people both of 20 years of age, 1 has been in regular work since leaving school and 1 hasn't worked because he's been at uni, I personally think the regular worker will be a more rounded person because unis can NOT teach you the real world. I'm not saying that uni is not the real world but they can't teach you how to work. They can teach you the principals of it but as some find out, the world can be very different once they leave uni to what they thought it would be. And this is why I believe in apprentiships for some (only some as it just won't work in some roles) roles as they give you the learning you would get at uni, you get a feel for the real job and more to the original point of this debate, they are a lot cheaper for the government.
Re: UNI Rant - Grant - 15-04-2012
We had a HSE (health and safety executive) lecturer come into college and lecture us on, beleive it or not, health and safety lol. In his eyes, it was safer to use a cement mixer on the ground without a stand, tip the mix on the floor, then shovel it into a barrow to save the risk of the mixer tipping over. To anyone not in the trade, that may not sound like a big deal, but when you get out from behind your HSE desk and do the job for real its largely impractical.
According to the same bloke we are not allowed step ladders on side, but later in conversation it was revealed that climbing onto the back of a lorry is against HSE regulations, and a step ladder should be used.... WTF?!
Anyway i digress, what I'm trying to say is you can go and learn about how a job should be done ,and then go and try to do it or learn it from the people who DO it, not talk about it. This all is largely pivoted upon what your trade/education is based upon however.
You cannot beat first hand experience, no matter what it is you are doing. Its they best way to learn. No two ways about it.
Re: UNI Rant - Niall - 15-04-2012
Dont get me started on HSE! :/
Re: UNI Rant - Grant - 15-04-2012
Niall Wrote:Dont get me started on HSE! :/
That was one man wrapped in red tape and sat behind a desk too long if I've ever seen one!
Re: UNI Rant - Eeyore - 15-04-2012
Ok I am at uni and I also have opportunity for a placement. All of the courses at uni have the opportunity for a year in industry! We also have a World Of Work qualification which proves that you have presenational skills and everything else employers are looking for! So I come out with a degree and a few years experience in industry? Now tell me that I dont have prospects or the experience necessary compared to someone who hasnt done that?
Its like yes Ive got debt that i need to pay back but Ive got a small amount of experience for a highly paid job instead of a large amount of experience for a average job! Of course if youre involved high up a business youre going to be minted but my arguement still stands!